Paul J DeBartolomeo

An unfortunate sign of the times Brothers, I just heard that all FDNY promotions are on hold indefinately, Probie class slated to start Jan 4 is on hold for an unspecific amount of time, and there is a rumor that the class of probies about to graguate may be laid off upon graduation. To the brothers in Yonkers, hang in and stay safe.

I dont know why, but I have also noticed them on buses in the fordam section of the Bronx & Inwood in Manhattan

Nice Pictures Wallie. LOL You Buff

I initially learned using the body belay technigue and carried rope with a beaner and felt that it worked fine. I have since been issued the petzyl system at work and feel it is a good system. I agree that regular training is a must, but that goes with all systems I suppose. Being as my Captain helped develop the system we are fortunate to get regular training and have actually built a bailout window in the firehouse. Another option would be the short platform in use at the rock, its basically a platform with a window frame that stands about 8 feet high. Easy to build at the firehouse, and can be made portable so others can benefit from it. Good luck with whatever you choose, and stay safe. Paul D.

Was this the body belay technique, and if so what did you think?

Als just a few points to ponder, in most juristictions an ems call with generate an F.D. response automatically, certainly if the call is of a serious nature, so the F.D. will already be enroute. In my experience the F.D. is usually first on scene and is waiting for the bus the majority of the time. In addition to the jump bag, the O2 the defib & ekg monitor and the stairchair/stretcher Im curious if most ems workers are going to want to carry an additional 15-20lbs tool up 6 flights of stairs. Just basing this on the people I respond with I highly doubt it. I dont consider this interagency B.S. its about using your resources as they have been designed to be used. Lastly, its becoming a widespread misnomer throughout the fire service that the hydra-ram is the best most efficent way to force a door. I can tell you from experience that the Irons are the quickest an most reliable means of entry period. Unfortunately many peoples skills with these tools have diminished over the years because they have become so reliant on the ram, and it almost seems as if they are intimidated by the irons. Where I work we treat every response as an opportunity to learn something and hone our skills while gaining valuable realworld experience. It works for us and makes us better prepared at no expense to the people we continue to serve.

And when the seal in the ram fails which happens quite often, or the door is set in a wood frame, or there is an angle iron, then what.

In my opinion the hydra-ram or rabbit tool is relied on heavily by people who lack training, technique, and experience in using the Irons. For us as an agency the Irons has proved very reliable & our members have become very proficient in there use. I am not going to turn this into a forcible entry lesson but there are many instances when the hydra ram in inefficient and not recomended for entry. Ex. wood door in wood frame, door with angle iron etc etc. As far as controlling the door that can be done with a rope or webbing just as with the hydra ram. I agree with the notion of going conventional making plenty of noise with the tools as you enter, damage is damage and in a real emergency its not going to matter to those in need. The idea of thru- the lock or coming off a fire escape or ladder through a window puts us in unneeded danger but I quess we could use a flash grenade as we enter that has worked in the past right, or maybe we can arm the emt's with stun guns so they can subdue any potenial threats.

No I think you may be missing the point's. Im basically saying if a door is to be forced in a medical situation we opt to use the Irons in lieu of the hydra-ram. There was some debate as to what is less invasive. In my experience both do a considerable amount of damage but the use of the Irons provides an additional benefit to the members in gaining some experience. No one said anything about taking windows and breaching walls, the original discussion concerned forcing a door & as I stated earlier if there was a medical emergency at my home I could care less what technique was used to get in. Yes you have yet to see it happen because those agencies lack the tools and training to do so, but if equipped your telling me it would never happen. As far as fires being down and us looking to take on added responsibilities I beg to differ, our work load has remained consistent and fires are actually on the rise. By giving up even the all too common calls in an effort to keep resourses in service you basically are playing into the politicians hands and justifying their cries to make cuts accross the board. If you dont see issues such as these as job security issues in this climate than so be it, but response, routine, mundane or otherwise is what justifies any services existance.

I quess I touched a nerve. Listen different regions view things differently thats how we operate and it works for us. Training days are great and very valuable but there is no substitute for the real thing and we seize these opportunities when possible. I quess if someone of my family were in the house and in need of help I wouldnt care what means the F.D. used to get in and care for my loved one, the damage done would be secondary. As far as ems & P.D. carrying tools my comment was more tounge and cheek than anything. But on a serious note if given the tools and on scene first at a fire I could see a door being forced prior to the FD's arrival which could lead to a number of problems. Also from a union standpoint its best to have specific agencies perform specific tasks you know job security and all. Or maybe we could provide ems with guns too, and between calls maybe they could collect the trash. One agency to handle all situations great idea! Yes we hand over these situations to the sector car if we cant secure the door ourselves but as far as returning to bed usually not a luxury where I work. Stay Safe, Paul

In NYC the request to gain entry is made by the EMS provider on scene and an engine company is assigned to an EMS 911 entry response. Such a request also generates a sector car response. Once on scene the engine officer will confer with ems and then proceed to gain entry. As a matter of course the method is usually conventional. I know some of you feel this is unprofessional and causes unnesecary damage, but we view it as an opportunity to gain valuable experience in the fading art of forcible entry. I suppose not everyone will agree with this approach but I would rather have a guy practice at these types of calls so when he is faced with a tough door at a working fire he has some solid technique to rely on. As for the rabbit tool as opposed to the Irons I think there is a considerable amount of damage done with each so why not give the brothers some experience. As to the sugestion of giving cops and ems forcible entry tools I wont dignify that with a response.

Sqd 47, What were the demographics for Francis Ln a few years back. Covering E.M.S. calls is one thing. Handling a working fire with adequately trained interior firefighters in a timely manner is another. That fire remains fresh in my head as how things could go down next time. Your nfris reports and all the numbers in the world doesnt put out fires as we both know. If my memory serves me correctly there were several members in quaters at the time of that alarm yet the outcome was less than favorable. That was when you had paid personel what is going to be different now. Paul

What can be done about a situation like this? We see it all the time throughout society and we all talk about how bad it is but what if anything can honestly be done about it.

Capt, As always I appreciate and respect your comments. As a rule when ladder company members are commencing thier primary searches their mission is twofold. To search for life, and also for the main body of fire. We try to begin our searches as close to the fire area and work our way back in an attempt to locate those in most peril but also to locate the fire and direct the hose line. In carrying out this inherently dangerous operation we always operate under the protection of a charged 2.5 gallon water can which has proven more than sufficient to hold a room of fire at bay until which time a line is in place or an orderly retreat can be made.

I dont like the idea of waiting for water until I encounter a heavy smoke condition. Many times a heavy smoke condition is immeadiately followed by a heavy fire condition as conditions begin to deteriorate rapidly and the room lites off. This is not the time that I want to find out we lost water, have a kink etc etc.

I would say charge the line at the door for P.D fires. If your company is operating properly the main body of fire will be located by the ladder company or the engine officer prior to the line moving into the bldg. We dont search for fire and strectch a line at the same time, 2 different functions. So once we have confirmed the fire location we can bring the charged hose line in. If repositioning a charged line is a concern think about this. If you have stretched to the wrong location and have discovered the fire is some where else, maybe behind you or below you, wouldnt you want to have water in your line, I know I would.

Where I work we train constantly. We usually drill once a tour, so if you work a 24hr shift thats 2 drills. Drills are conducted in house, and often times in the field at vacant blds junked cars etc. Once a week we have what is called M.U.D. (multi unit drill) where we get together with multiple companies and drill. Usually these are cross training type drills, eng guys climbing the aerial, truck guys using the pumps etc etc. In addition to what is self motivated training we are often summoned to the training academy for tactical training which covers any number of subject matters. Usually the subject is unknown until you arrive and are presented a scenario which I think is great because it makes it realistic.

Cogs, Why do all of your posts have to be disertations cant you sum up your thoughts in a hundred words of less? Paul

So the Fire engineering training video produced by a 30 year veteran with boatloads of experience is wrong, but fireengineering keeps it on their site for the entire country to see. That makes alot of sense. Who cares where the stairs are, thats not the point here. A line streched through the front door will be between the most likely place fire is going to extend, and the stairs anyway, and will be in a good position to cut off any extension into the dwelling area. If we operate directly into the garage and push fire into the dwelling thats okay right.

Roof, if the garage is heavily involved upon arrival so what. At least we can protect the dwelling and those potenially trapped within. In a manpower limited company four members can commence the operation of streching 2 lines. If the first line goes inside to protect the house and the garage is fully involved the engine chauffer can always hit the garage with the deck gun and have a sufficient knockdown until help arrives. I think the homeowner would be ok with losing their garage but still having a house to live in. Anyone can be drawn to the spectacular site of a fully involved situation, but a true professional can see the big picture and deploy the resources where they are most needed and will do the most good initially. Where does the first line go for a vacant bldg fire that is fully involved, treat the garage in the same manner. Life always comes first.

We had a discussion on this very topic about a year ago following a fire in a local dept and that discussion actually resulted in a training minutes video on fireengineering.com. The tactics for an attached garage fire are very straight forward. The first line enters the dwelling to extinquish any extension or prevent any possible extension. The second line gets the fire. If there is a door from the garage to the dwelling, and conditions allow, the line may be advanced from the dwelling into the garage to work the fire. If not the first line may have to stand fast while the second line gets the fire. Obviously searches will be conducted simutaneously. Attacking the garage first could quite possibly lead to involvement of the dwelling area and endanger those within, including us doing searches. The first engine crew must be disciplined to enter the structure and maintain that vital posistion. It sucks that they may not get a piece of the fire but they are doing alot of good and are operating in a professional manner.Check out the video by LT Ray McCormack, a recognized expert in engine company operations. Good Topic Paul D.

Weaselff, absolutely hysterical brother & Jflynn Im picturing that guy with the T-shirts & pagers right now.

Photo unit, you seem to defend Kentland based on your recent visit. I believe you also recently visited Hyattesville correct. Why dont you ask the brothers of Hyattesville what they think of Kentland, or what the majority of companies in the PG area think. If everyone around you thinks your a D@#$ then maybe its time to look in the mirror. Those guys in Kentland have a reputation and level of unprofessionalism that proceeds them throughout the county, Im told.

Weaselff I agree with you 100% these guys are a bunch of buffs, I have heard many stories about their act, and most of them were not good. Off duty guys living in the firehouse, yeah that guys gotta life.

Well said JV, I agree whole heartedly, alot of us owe where we are today to that place. I for one will never forget the good times had there and what I owe to the place, unfortunately not everyone sees it that way. The BFD has certainly launched several FD careers!