wraftery

Phoenix doesn't use them for fire attack per se. Phoenix has had a major population influx and the resulting building boom has been with nothing but wood trusses. Combine that with the fact that Phoenix is in a desert where water is scarce, and I would conclude that they "build a lot of parking lots" as the saying goes. What's a parking unless it's paved and striped? OR Brunacini probably came up with the theory that concrete is actually a good ABCD extinguishing agent. Encase anything in concrete, even nukes, and it will not burn. There's no need for overhaul, either. The only complaint he got is from the Cause and origin team.

Something that was not mentioned all the way thru this thread is that when you do your 36o, there is more likely than not, an exterior door someplace around the back of that home. Conditions at this door could answer a lot of the incident action questions we have been talking about.

A LITTLE TONGUE-IN-CHEEK HUMOR I heard from a Proby school instructor. How one man can operate an interior 2 1/2 effectively: "Use a straight stream...50 psi is better than 100. Get low and open the nozzle fully.. Hang on tight 'cause it will bang you around the hallway for a while until it pins you against a wall. And that's where you fight the fire from."

Very good critique, Jflynn. I was unable to type out all those points becaause it was a nice day here in VA and I had to get some yard work done. We each saw a slightly different fire in the video. I saw what appeared to be an addition on SideC that also appeared to be well involved as well as fire taking over the attic, with the house unuccupied. As we all know, once the life factor is added, the entire strategy changes. I went defensive simply because I expected the attic to flash fairly soon. I have 2 items that might be called disagreements, but I would prefer to call them "talking points." 1. I looked at the video one more time. (You don't get to do this do in real life. Maybe NFPA could, like fooball, institute the challenge, and after instant replay, you get to do it over). If you see this as not having control of the attic, then take the deck gun out of the equation. I think the 2 1/2 is the right tool in this job. There's always the "Make a loop and sit on it" trick which I have done, and I'm a little guy. At a coup;e of points in the video whre it looks like you could get it with a1 3/4 but I would play it safe and go wih 2 1/2. I think that if your guys pulled a 1 3/4 on arrival for this, you would be asking them why. 2. There are no hydrants within 50ft. I didn't see any in the video, and there are no hydrants within 200 ft or even 500 ft. Didn't you see the cop and the guy in the Buick (probably an unmarked car)? They were driving back and forth looking for a water source for us to no avail. How else could you explain them. As far as trusses go, we had to take our best estimate on arrival. But it is development which means most houses are of similar construction.. A heads-up firefighter would have taken mental notes when he has been there before.

If you are going to start a thread like this please keep each thread to only one scenario. We all know how confusing it can be trying to discuss one scenario much less two. Great thread for discussion, though. Keep it up

For those considering an interior attack with a 2 1/2, please take another look at the video. There is a red glow along the soffet almost all the way across the A side and blackening creeping downward on the walls below. By the time you stretch your line and finish gearing up, the rest of the house , more likely than not, will have flashed over. Life is your highest priority, and you don't know Les is safe unless you left the audio on. In doing your 360, if there are bystanders, a quick shout "Does anybody live here?" might give you the "Everybody's out" answer that absolutely changes your mode to defensive. Points to consider at first look are: 1 This fire is bigger than your 2 1/2 2.Even if there may be an occupant, is there even an outside chance he's alive after the coming flashover in the living side of the house? 3. How far into the door can you go and still get out when you see signs of impending flashover? Does 5ft ring a bell? I'D TEND TO SPIN MY DECK GUN AT THE MAIN BODY OF FIRE, USE MY 1 MIN OF TANK WATER (which won't come close to a knockdown) AND WAIT FOR MY WATER SUPPLY.

Me too, JohnnyOV

No second guessing going on here. Read the first line of my quote. I'm giving the Montrose IC the benefit of the doubt and reviewing the rule.

This may have been accomplished on-scene, so I'm not pointing fingers. This is just to reiterate the concept. One more time: Fast (RIT, MAT) Must be established prior to anyone entering an ILDH atmosphere (the building). The minimum is 2 in 2 out. Fast must be continuous until the atmosphere is no longer ILDH. Fast is part of the fire control team. You wouldn't even think of starting a baseball game without an outfield. Too much can go wrong.

Great statment, PEMO3. A little book at the CP would help. An IC (or RUL) would not possibly call for (or recommend)a resource if he doesn't know it exists. Next step:TRAINING Even a "Resource Day" for people in the command structure would be a great help. At least people would have a look at what's available to them. Not where we should be, but a start.

If I remember right, it is the responsibility of the employer to provide confined spsce permits, training (operations level) and rescue capability. The FD doesn't rspond for every time a man goes down a manhole. Thus the DPW truck. OR That truck is the plow for Ryes narrow streets where the big plows don't fit. OR AFL says "Maybe the signage is there to keep people out? You know, you need a confine space permit to retrieve anything from inside the cap? It has restricted/limited entry/exit, is large enough for entry and to perform work, yet not designed for continuous occupancy. Add in the CO poisoning issues inside caps and you now have a permit required confined space! Man I shoulda been a lawyer!" Antiquefirelt is correct. Anyplace under the cap is a confined spsce. So isn't the cab of the truck also a confined space along with the pooper stall at the DPW Garage or the firehouse?

I was out all day. Sorry for not answering your quandry. Thanks to those who stepped in and helped.

Comon, Barry...it's called UNIFIED COMMAND

I knew for a long time now, but I was sworn to secrecy. I changed my allegiance because these resources are too important to FD persons in the field in the event of a major incident. In good conscience, I could keep this secret no longer. This video will explain what is contained in these trailers, and you will know immediately why there are people on the payroll qualified to operate the resources.Entabulator1.wmv

Aim for the big red dot in the center...step off and immediately assume a sitting position

Billfitz makes a maajor statement he He doesn't know re. Why would an IC call for these resources if 1 He doesn't know if they exist or is it rumor 2 He doesn't know what types they are or what they carry 3 He doesn't know How to ask for one 4 He doesn't know response time 5 He doesn't know manning or skill level of responders If he did call for one of these resources, he is very likely, when it gets to the scene, to find out that it is not what he needed and the situation status has worsened in the meantime. If you were an IC, would you call for something this questionable? I would go for a sure thing as opposed to a guess.

Yes, Hartsdale's boxes are read on a computer screen. The system was put in along with a complete comm upgrade when Sta 2, where the dispatcher is located, received its addition and refurb. It was done after I left, so I don't have specifics. If HFD were to decide to go with the county dispatcher, the boxes could stay on the street, and the receiving point could be moved to the county via phone lines or internet, or the like. The gamewell system lasted 100 years and is still operational. Will anything "state of the art" installed today have that same longevity or like computers will it be obsolete the day it is installed? Also, no one that I know of has weighed the 100 years cost of municipal system maintenance against the cost of putting a similar modern system on the street and then replacing it every few years to keep it current. On 9/11 phone lines were dead or overloaded, and you couldn't connect with a cell tower anywhere in lower Manhattan but if I am correct, except for ground zero, pull a box and the firemen show up. They might have had to come from Westchester, Hoboken, or Bridgeport, but they would show up.

Good dissertation, Cap. Might I add a like more about the Gamewell Telegraph Syatem? The 3-fold box came into widespread use in the early 1900s, and if installed correctly (most are not) it is almost foolproof The 3 folds are Non-interfering, Sequential, and Ground return. It is meant to operate with the boxes on a single wire loop, but unfortunately many places have installed them on a feed loop and a home run which can defeat the features that make the system fail safe. Non-interfering means that if one box is transmitting it has control of the system. A second pulled box will not be able to join in and give wrong bells. Sequential means that if several boxes are pulled, one will wait for the prior box to finish before it transmits. Ground return means that if a wire is broken, the system will rely on the one good incoming wire ant transmit using the ground (earth)as its second wire. If a tree limb falls and breaks the wire on single loop, gorund return will work, but if two wires are broken, it defeats the ground return feature. If many boxes are pulled at once a box will keep waiting its turn to transmit, until its mainspring is almost wound down, in which case, it will take over the system from the other boxes and transmit its box number on its final breath, so to speak. Remember, this was early 1900's and all this was accomolished by a series of gears, contacts, coils, and springs. The system is actually digital because the whole thing operates on a series of "if...then" tests and line open...closed. The system was also a two-way system. Let's say the Chief arrives at Box 271 in his buggy, and wants to sound a Second alarm. Remember there is no radio and phones are only for the rich. Let's say the bell signal for a senond alarm is 2-2. The Chief would open the box and on the telegraph key inside he would tap out 2-2 271. Most of you have not worked in a place with a municipal system, but it is still the fastest response time of any other system, even the systems today using CAD,etc. (Vols systems were slow because the system had to be timed slow for the whistle to operate) All hands would start counting the bells as soon as the box started coming in. No matter how big or small your city was, by the second digit you knew if you were 1st due, 2nd due, not assigned, etc. Old guys like me are like Pavlov's dog. Start ringing bells at the proper timing, ,and we start counting.

Hartsdale still has them, and very few falses from them...not like the old days.

Videos and pics show that even early-on in this job, apparatus was positioned outside the Possible Collapse Zone. Red danger tape idicated the Zone (Yellow tape is for civilians, red tape is an exclusion area for us). One pic shows a FF with a transit monitoring the plumb of the church wall. We can all take a lesson from NRFD. Good work,bruthas!

You could be right, but I'm pretty sure that 5 was Webster when I was growing up on Walnut St. I also remember a tiller truck with a spring-loaded aerial on Webster. My grandfather was a NRPD Sgt at the 2nd Precint before my time.

I'll go with you on that,Loo

I think it was E-6 1- Huguenot St 2- Church 3- Easthester 4- Drake 5- Webster 6- Mill Rd

I would go with Wykagyl and Rochelle Park (or words to that effect)

The number is less than the number who "live in Scarsdale"