wraftery

FD was called for a guy at the beach who was knee deep in the water and started to faint. Two bystanders were keeping him upright. The FF making the report called it a "Sinkable Episode."

Same as everything else in the Fire Service:" My FD is better than yours, my accountability system is better than yours." There are probably hundreds of accountability systems out there, some cheap like the forest service's T-cards, some, like the radio operated system are very expensive. They all work if we MAKE them work, and none work if we are just going through the motions. Someplace along the line, they all have flaws of one kind or another. You can make any system work if we see accountability as an ATTITUDE as opposed to a system. The correct attitude starts at the bottom of the organization, the rookie, and runs all the way to the Chief. And it encompases every resource that ccomes in on mutual aid. The Probie: You taught him the buddy system probably on the first day of proby school, right after the morning "form signing" session and before "this is an Engine, this is a Truck." You came with him, know where he is all the time. Many proby schools require all students to have a buddy all throughout the school. You cannot even go to the bathroom without that buddy going along. The FF: You spend more time with the people in your firehouse than you do with any other human being. You call him your brother. For a couple of beers and a burger, they will help you move out of your old house and into a new one. Nobody has to tell you to watch out for him because you've always had eachother's back. The Company Officer: Like a mother duck, the company follows you and they do what you say without question. You scold them when they relieve eachother and don't write the change on the riding assignment chalkboard. You are absolutely aware of your responsibility to keep your people together and safe. The Chief Officer: You have to have a handle on everyone on the scene including the mutual aid companies. Where are they, what are they doing, are they getting into trouble. How many times have you told a company to "back it out" and get the response "We're OK, Chief, we got it"? Did you assess quickly and decide whether to back them out or let them keep pushing? Do you strive to have FAST in place from beginning to end without interruption? Among all these things you are responsible for, you still have to read the building and the smoke that's emanating and estimate whether you are winning or losing. Are you willing to have your guys get hurt? I think not. I think the acountability requirement started 20-25 years ago when a volunteer department had a fire where a member came along and worked the job without telling anyone he was there (or he did tell someone but it was forgotten). All returned to quarters, and the next morning the member was found dead in the basement. No one knew that he was at the fire. I cannot recall any other instance of not knowing who was there except 9/11/2001. The accounting problem there was that it happened at change of shifts and off-duty members jumped on the rigs because it was definitely the "Big One." Then two 110 story buildings collapsed onto the accountability system. The Cause was that Arab Radicals flew two planes into those buildings, and not flaws in FDNY's accountability system. So, how, after reading all the "values" stuff above do we operate at a fire and account for all our members? 1. Operate in Companies-Groups-Divisions. The theory of ICS is in span of control. This is the easiest way for command to track everybody on the fireground 2. If mutual aid comes in with a different Accountability system use their system to account for them. If they have tags on rings, for example, use those tags when you do a PAR 3. If there are several mismatched radio systems in use, you have to have a radio outside for every radio frequency inside if you don't you can miss a mayday call. 4. If the fire is more than just a room and contents, the IC should put a trained man on the IC board. The IC can't run a complex operation and the board at the same time and do an adequate job at both functions. 5. Board men should write up a IC chart on the board which shows the assignments and not just a list of the companies on-scene. They make these boards eraseable so that you can change the chart as needed. For example if E-1 is taken off Fire Attack and sent to Rehab, and then to Staging, you can reflect this on your ICS chart. A list of on-scene companies tells you nothing except that they are someplace on-scene. 6. Give the IC a little help. Companies (or Divisions, Groups, etc.) should advise the IC by radio not only of their progress but the lack thereof as well. 7. Last but not least, when you get there, report in to the IC. When you are demobilized, report out. Whew...talk about giving my 2 cents worth.

That's not freelancing. That's what is supposed to happen. You came across a PIAA, took the proper actions, and reported that to the IC on the original call. Good job, son.

Bnechis asks "Do you handle the 1st rig or 2 different than once you have established a "full" command structure?" Of course, Barry. Why? Because we work in companies and 1 or 2 things is easy to keep track of. It's the "Stop and Shop Theory." If I say to my wife "I'm going to the hardware store, do you need anything while I'm out?" She says "Get milk and bread." I don't have to write it down...it's only 2 things. I'll remember that. If she adds one more thing..."Oh and get salad dressing." I instinctively start a list...I'm moving toward that magic number 5 in my span of control. When they say ICS can be used for everything, take it to heart. By the time I get out of the house there will be ten items on that list, but I was prepared because of ICS. Next week's lesson will be: Sunday afternoon Rehab Training. See how the NFL, a Bud Lite, and a recliner fit into ICS.

Let's clarify our definitions before this thread starts rolling. "Buff" is someone whose hobby is the FD, be it fires, fire apparatus, old tools, history, etc. A buff often appears at fires but is not involved with any part of the command structure. His position is to stay behind the fire lines and observe, take photos or videos, or discuss the strategy. Sometimes, he is well known and trusted by the IC, and is allowed to cross the fire lines and take pictures, but he cannot become involved in the operation. Also, both career and voll personnel are often found buffing, many are there not to buff but to learn strategy or tactics to better their knowledge of firefighting. Most buffs are not a problem. If they go where they are not supposed tb be, they are told to get back and usually comply. "Freelancer" is someone who IS part of the command/operations structure but is not following the orders of his superiors or the incident action plan. For example, without an order, he may vent a window, discharge a hose line, enter a building without authorization, etc. A freelancer, by the way, can be a Chief from another department who is operating and giving orders like it was his fire instead of the actual IC. It could be a company that is assigned to the job, but is doing their own thing. Freelancers will get people killed. Yes!...straighten them out or get them off the fireground. Career FFs who are freelancing are easy to correct. Their freelancing can cost them 3 days pay or worse. Volls might take some schmoozing to correct the problem, but if it happens more than once, it's probably time to drop him from your rolls. I know it's hard to get volls to join, but losing a member is better than losing a life. If there is really a problem, you can get a police officer and request an arrest for interfering with governmental operations. (That's if the freelancer isn't the cop) Sorry Brothers in blue, I just couldn't pass that one up. I still like you guys.

After reading that last post, including the quoted reference, all I can say is "Hmmmm"

How 'bout the K-mart Fire Department?? They could do blue light specials

Tommy McTeague...I don't think there are many FFs around that are quite like him in more ways than one.

Thanks for the memories. When I went on the job in 1971, there was a minimum height requirement. Many guys literally stretched to get on the job, including myself. I needed 1/4 inch tops, and did some exersizes to get taller, but I know guys that hung from their garage rafters in a harness that went under your chin and around the back of your head. The theory in stretching was that you could stretch your spine by taking the pressure off your disks. You are taller in the morning because your disks aren't compressed. When I went for my height measurement, I had to stand on the scale with a proctor reading your height "for the record." Another proctor had a sheet of paper under your heels. He tugged at the paper to see if you were going up on yout tippy toes. If he could pull the paper out, you were cheating. There were guys that were carried in on a plywood stretcher by their friends. That was so your spine didn't compress and make you measure shorter. Those were the good ol' days. Our written test was hard, too.

Don't worry if Westchester can't define a RESCUE. FEMA has been trying to define a rescue (NIMS Typing) for about eight years now. The ambulance corps people across the country often call their bus a rescue. Check out Ray Downey's (RIP) book "The Rescue Company." FDNY invented the rescue company and everybody else should go along with the FDNY definition. When you invent something, you get to name it, don't you? It was originally given its name because its purpose was to rescue firefighters, and branched out into the can-do-all company we see today. Based on that, I think you would agree that a Rescue Company is a combination of highly trained personnel along with the tools to accomplish just about ANYTHING. I don't care if those highly trained people are responding with all their tools in a Hertz Truck. In my opinion, anything less is not a rescue, it is a pipe dream.

Maybe all us short guys should get together and start a FEMA Confined Space unit. And I never once hit my head on that low-hanging soil pipe in the Station 1 Basement.

Here in Virginia the guys wear sunglesses ALL the time. I was a little taken aback when I saw pictures of them doing an extrication with sunglasses as their only eye protection. I found out that they have Approved Joe Cool Safety Sunglasses.

BEST of luck, Bill

Ours is in Rules and Regs. Mine are up in the attic, Hudson, and I don't feel like looking for them right now, but they are more or less the standard, run of the mill regulations. If you need more info, I guess that if you ask me nicely I will go look. (That's in return for a hot dog in the future). Also the word "UNIFORM" means everyone is dressed exacttly the same way. If it was important, like a medal day or promotion or something else where you should look your best, I would get a haircut too. I wouldn't want the CHIEF telling me I could use a haircut...how 'bout you?

200 years ago, here in the US, you purchased fire inurance for your home and were isued a firemark ( placque) for your front door. It signified that you were insured by that company. The volunteer fire companies were funded by insurance companies, and were not public agenies. If they pulled up (actually pulled up because their equipment was hand-drawn)and you did not have a firemark, they didn't put your fire out. So, the problem in Fulton is nothing new. I see talk about a lack of morality on the part of the firefighters, What about the morality of the Fulton homeowners who would not pay their $75/year? They know the deal because the same thing has happened before and was widely publicized. Not only did they take a chance and lost, but by not paying, they lower the FD's ability to protect the community because its funds are lower. I have known and worked with Chief Benz for a long time, and agree with his thoughts about life safety of the non paying homeowner, potential FF injuries, etc. I know full well that Chief Benz would pull up and take ALL these thoughts, analyze them, and do the right thing. Remember, however, that this analysis has to take under 30 seconds and a decision has to be made. Personally, I am quite certain that I could let that house burn and protect the paying exposures. If the non-paying homeowner was not accounted for and possibly inside, I would have to extend my size-up to 45 seconds and then render my answer.

I think a major factor in the lack of shared services and the duplication of services not only in Westchester, but nationwide, is the "My Fire Dept. is better than your Fire Dept." attitude. If you really look, there are a few really good departments nationwide and a lot of bad ones. It would seem fairly simple to try to learn from the good ones and get the bad ones to follow just by example. But nay, that would be too easy. Why? As was mentioned several times already in this thread: EGOS Try this: Run a multi-department live fire drill with your surrounding brothers... not a major disaster drill, just a bread and butter scenario. If you can't think of one, try a scenario that goes somethng like this: City A has a major fire going on downtown. You, Department B and Department C are back filling in City A's stations. A call comes in for a 1 family dwelling with a 1-room fire with occupants unaccounted for. Your department arrives first with an engine and establishes command. In 4 minutes, a ladder from Dept. B arrives, and 3 minutes later, an engine from Dept. C arrives. Do this again, switching the order in which the companies arrive. Then critique when you are done. This is what observations should come of this drill: Command should be established, transferred, etc. smoothly and without difficulty. Accountability should be adhered to throughout, FAST should be established and maintained. IC should have his tactics established (e.g. Attack-Search-Vent) Unity of Command should carry throughout the drill. ( No one but the IC running the show) At the critique, let the participants talk. They should be saying they are not that far apart and think they should do this kind of drill more often. If the drill results you get are not in line with my description above, then YOU are probably one of the bad Depts. Give up your ego and go learn something! If it went well, then do it again and then again with different participants. Hopefully, the word will spread.

Sounds about like it was to me, Cap. The People on upper floors were probably not trapped, just scared. Sounds like they were defended in place. As you said, water on the fire AND a good vent will usually solve most of your other problems. Familiarization inspections are a high priority item in Hartsdale. There is no reason that a FFs first time in a building like this is for a fire. That's how FFs get lost and sometimes dead. As Seth said, inspections are one of the first things we do when a probie comes aboard. He still remembers that building and its layout. And that's only one building.

Here's a pretty good article about FF hiring in Virginia for those who might be looking for the job. http://digital.olivesoftware.com/Olive/ODE/VirginianPilot/LandingPage/LandingPage.aspx?href=VmlyZ2luaWFuUGlsb3QvMjAxMS8xMS8yNg..&pageno=MTM.&entity=QXIwMTMwMg..&view=ZW50aXR5

Thre is a difference between a FD Funeral and a LODD funeral. It may be hard to explain, but the difference can be seen in number of Brothers lining the street and how far they came to pay their respects. There is nothing wrong with honoring a Brother. The honors and ceremonies are not for us or for the deceased. They are for the family of our brother firefighter. The impression on the family of the deceased brother lasts a lifetime. Yes, a LODD is the supreme sacrifice. Sometimes, no, most times, firefighters spend their entire careers never making a rescue. Only a few get the medals. But doesn't the guy that completes a search under dangerous conditions and finds no one exhibit the same courage as the guy that made the rescue? At 15 years old, I peered out the limosine window at the saluting line of Firefighters. The vision is still fresh in my mind. 'Nuff said. If it's Line-of-Duty, you'll know. It will be obvious.

Take my words to heart. Even if you think I am full of poop in my firefighting posts, this is the best advice I can give you...ever. Now is the time for the YOUNGER Firefighters and Police Officers to watch that money like a mama bear guarding her cubs. If Gov. Cuomo (who is probably getting about eight government pensions) tries to take, borrow, rearrange, or touch your pension in any way be ready to pounce. It is YOUR retirement he wants to play with. Your future is at risk. Take it personally because it is. Your retirement will come sooner that you think...protect it!

Were you in the Navy, Sully? That's where I first heard the "6P's" except back in 1966 it was "Proper Planing Prevents Piss Poor Performance." The P's are in different places but the gist is the same.

Often, the when and where the plasma cutter or petrogen (similar to oxycetelyne in its properties) are used is more often than not dictated by the situation. Neither would be used for ordinary extrications. What is dismaying is that you said it looks like it has never been used. That to me means that no one has trained on it. If that is the case, it Shouldn't be used at an actual incident!!! What is the plan? Are you going to assign one member to be the cutter and another to read the instruction book? Get yourselves some training by someone in the Fire Service that is well trained and ask him to give you a few lessons. Then get some scrap metal and practice...practice...practice. Or sell your equipment.

I would say they are not considered FAST. OSHA requires that the two out must be qualified to assist the two in. If they were considered FAST, nobody would have to call for a FASt team that's 20 minutes away...just turn to the crowd of onlookers and say "Hey guys, I'm goin' in. Would any of you guys be available to get me out if things go wrong?" All you would need is 2 yesses and you're covered.

Thanks for the compliment but be it known that like most, and not like the Bronx guys, I only had 3-4 good fires a year. Also, I think it is by far more difficult to stay organized on the fireground if you don't get a lot of jobs. I am happy with my fireground work over my 15 years as a Deputy. No parking lots, nobody seriously injured. I felt pretty calm on the fireground. Tommy Brennan once said that a fire officer has to fill his head with "stuff" and be able to pull that stuff out again at a moments notice. I tried to learn from those who did it every day, and in my case, it was from the Bronx guys who worked the "Burn Baby Burn" days of the late 60's and early 70's. Thank them. And I thank the great firefighters that worked for me over the years. "Good discussion, albeit a little far from the original topic. A lot of this is still fairly new too us on the east coast as compared to the folks who have been using some form of the IMS more often on much larger incidents out west. Al the classes and exercises help, but those who have operated on some of the big wildland fires tend to have a better grasp of how it all actually plays out." Be it known to all, FDNY has gotten a bad rap and people have accused them of not having an incident command system on 9/11. They have had probably the best incident command systems in the world. When FDNY went to a paid department back in the late 1800's, their officers were products of the military during the Civil war, and brought their organizational skills with them, including how to run a battle. THEY CERTAINLY HAD AN INCIDENT COMMAND SYSTEM, just not THE ICS as adopted by NIMS. Yes, the CP can be remote...back far enough to "see the box." You may never have to establish Planning, Logistics and Admin, but you should know how..."stuff in your head." We may be more likely to establish Ops, but more often than not, I see it established just because it's there, not because it's needed. Regarding ICS, it seems to me that the fire service likes to "talk the talk" but not "walkkng the walk." WE tend to play with ICS definitions and argue semantics to the extreme, but ignore the theories of ICS that are the base for the whole system: Span of control and Unity of command. If we operate under those two items, our success rate will go up tremendously.