wraftery

OK, Sage, we'll scratch the "Live Free or Die" but keep the rest. At least you didn't Yale at me over my mistake.

It looks like you are in New Hampshire. If I am right, the state motto is "Live Free or Die." Maybe those older guys sre just "living free" and don't want to be told that they have to train. The second alternative in the state motto could come into play for one or more people in your department if you don't train. Along with what EFDCAPT115 said, you might also try these: 1. See if the state has any requirements in place for training. 2. Go to a similar dept in your area that you feel is "squared away." Find out how they go about getting interest in training. They might even be nice enough to give you their training schedule and/or lesson plans. 3. Get a dept like the one in #2 to allow you to join them in a mutual aid drill 4.Bring a guest speaker in and have the speaker scare the sh#$ out of them. For you, I would try DC John Sullivan, Worcester MA, or somebody from Peabody, MA. Try some of these tricks and get back to us with an evaluation.

Agreed, Bnechis So would we rather have SOP's written in stone, or people that are experienced in the art of firefighting? "You gotta know when to hold 'em, know when to fold 'em, know when to walk away, know when to run.

Problem: You have to get it past the NY State codes council, not an easy task. Regarding "more stringent" local codes, the council believes that if an item is necessary, they will put it in the state code, and won't grant a local more stringent. Frank Brannigan said the best way to judge integrity of a building in to weigh it. The lighter it is, the more likely it will burn bigger and faster. For example, Kensico Dam will not burn down. Whatever you build with lightweight materials will burn quickly. It's kind of a no brainer, isn't it?

Need a bus to transport not injured or minimally injured?? The easy way: Have a plan and pre-committed resources for any MCI. Call 60-Control and get what you need. The hard way: (This is what I think happened at this incident) No plan for MCI's. Plead for a bus over and over. In time, someone will break down and get you a bus, but response time is unknown. The dynamic Incident Commander way: (You will certainly have to explain yourself after the incident is over, but you'll get your bus very soon) Tell the senior State Trooper on scene that you need a bus NOW and nobody is cooperating. Traffic is backing up from Philadelphia to Providence. Tell him to send a Trooper off the interstate, commandeer the first local bus he sees and bring it to the scene. From day one, Troopers are told that they are in charge of everything in the state. Whether they actually are or not is not important. I guarantee you if a state trooper is told to get a bus, he will come back to you with a bus, and very quickly. Next, tell the media what you did and praise the State Police for their actions. You and the State Police now become heros on the 6 o'clock news. Anyone who would yell at you for taking such action cannot do so without having egg on their face.

First of all, VBFD has a MCI team and response unit, as does the Hampton Roads region. This includes units/teams in Chesapeake, Norfolk, Newport news. Because of the distinct possibility of an aircraft incident they run a drill with the Navy on a yearly basis, addressing issues unique to military aircraft such as ejection seats, carbon-fiber hazards, weapons hazards, etc. This is in addition to the "normal" MCIs like bus accidents,etc. Try this on Youtube: VA Beach Airplane Crash Fire audio (FYI: In Va Beach A rescue is an ambulance, a Squad is similar to a NY rescue Co, Car 1,2,3,etc are Admin Chiefs, Numbers like 1234R are amblalnces. I was listening live since my son was working, and also watching it on tv. I was pretty impressed. Westchester has a long way to go to meet this level of service. First, egos have to be swept under the rug. Your FD is probably Not better than the other guy's. If it is better, why noy help the other guy instead of pionting at his faults. You will never finish improving if you don't start.

Thanks for the compliments.

I read the article and it is always a good idea to evaluate your tactics and see what works and what doesn't. I am certain thhat FDNY will do scientific studies and end up with valid results. I remember, however Lloyd Layman's experiments with fog. To some it became like the word of God. Others were skeptical and stayed with smooth bore nozzles. It started a debate within the fire service that never looked like it was going to end. Many were very opinionated regarding fog vs. straight, but very few actually went to their live burn place and tried both under the same conditions to form their opinion. They simply sided with one or the other. A large number of our colleagues sided with fog only because it was "new" and if you use something "new" you are progressive. We don't do that, do we? (PPV on attack, magic penetrating solutions , etc.) Some of the FDNY article mentioned "Force the door...Control the door...wait to hear the glass break...then open the door slightly and bang the line off the ceiling" The reporter made it look like something new. I learned this method from FDNY's last set of fire tactics experiments. They tried many many tactics on many many fires. They did it over and over, and mostly at night. They kept and used the tactics that worked and discarded the ones that didn't. You say you never heard of this batch of experiments? It was done in about 1968-1974 in the South Bronx and called Burn Baby Burn. Thanks, Bronx firefighters of that era. I learned a lot. Knock down a basement fire before going in? Now I think it's called Pushing a fire. Once again, thanks Bronx guys. So the things that the FDNY study are probably nothing new, but I am sure they will tell us what worked and what didn't. I suggest we all just sit down and wait for the results and then try the ones that worked for FDNY.

Even if the calltaker was unfamilar with the location of the 79th St Boat Basin, The reporting party called on a cell phone. Doesn't the calltaker have the ability to locate the phone? Not necessarily the calltaker himself, but at least someone with something on a supervisor screen?

This is one of the sorriest excuses for a document I have ever seen. All it does is "recommend." Yes, NY is a home rule state, but it does Require 229 hours of training for career firefighters under their document Administrative Standards for Firefighters. Where's the "home rule" in that? I believe the State could require a lot but just chooses not to. Even the 229 hours is minimal. Responsible fire departments are giving their probies somewhere in the range of 400 hours before they hit the street. Along with that, the required 100 hrs per annum cannot scratch the surface of the things they should be training on annually. Where was home rule when the state mandated PASS devices and personal escape systems? The state jumped right over home rule when enough people demanded these items, and the state can do it in regards to training. All you have to do is get together and make a stink to enough stste legislators. The argument for "home rule" and "recommendations instead of requirements" over the years has usually been something along the lines of "If we force too much training on firefighters, we will lose volunteers." Well, how would you rather lose them, because you require too much training, or would you rather carry them out in stokes baskets and put their name on that ever growing stone monument in Albany. (By the way, that monument sits in front of the place where they only "recommended" training. Ironic, isn't it?) This is not a salvo aimed at volunteers, either. The vols that see the need for training will stay. I spent almost 35 years on the fire department and I cannot remember a time when I didn't want more skills and knowledge. Even in retirement, I am still learning. The Authority Having Jurisdiction should be within yourself. You should be begging your department for more training and knowledge. How would you feel if you were personally responsible for losing a guy because you chose not to train on whatever killed your fellow firefighter? You have to live with that for the rest of your life? Never let a man say that his training let him down.

I suggest we all write our congressman and either ban purple lights or tax them heavily. If it's dumb, our legislators will surely put it into law. OOPS...I take that back...I'm getting old. Congress might take it the wrong way and ban funerals altogether.

I would go with 10 or more stories. That's about when you have to change tactics to a hi-rise operation and stage a floor below, operate from standpipes,designate "Hot stairway/Evacuation stairway," etc. My point before was that even though you are only working in a 6-story OMD, you may be using a modified hi-rise tactic because of inaccessability of 3 sides. In addition, reading Goon16's description of omd's, note that an OMD will have features that differ by when the building was built. They are usually Ordinary construction, normally not frame, but the brick veneer might be over concrete block. They differ in things like Fire escapes vs. Fire stairs, vs open stairs by date built. Many have standpipes, and some have house standpipes that are not connected to a fire main and don't have a FDC. House standpipes can be used for an initial attack by feeding the lobby standpipe with a hose line, but that ends their usefulness. Even an older OMD with open stairs and accessable from only the A side can be worked with a standpipe pack form the 1st due engine. Take the standpipe pack to the floor below. Open or force a "clean" apartment on the A Side, and drop the standplpe pack line out the window. Communicate to the MPO where the line can be found, and have him connect to it. Better yet, work up a SOP for such places in your area, using what's best for you, given the different classes of buildings in your area and the response capabilities of your FD.

We usually wouldn't regard a 6 story building as hi-rise because it's roof is within reach of FD ladders. However, if you line these OMD's up on a street with the only access on the #1 side, your tactics are those of hi-rise firefighting. (Standpipe packs, etc)

Brannigan said that it is not necessarily the members that fail, it's the connections. I think I would pay as much attention to how these members are connected as I would pay to what they are made of.

SPRINKLERS

Balloon construction, you can touch two houses standing in the alley with outstretched arms, and don't forget that soffett that hangs over the alley. Sometimes it is necessary to concede a house or two and go for one down the block once you have your equipment ready for attack. Quite often, under the pretty vinyl siding, lies what we affectionately call "gasoline siding." That's asphalt siding that was used in the era when these houses were built. Now it's time to pull out your IFSTA Fire Behavior book and look up Radiational Feedback.

I cannot believe that FDNY has not brought up the points I made in their arguements before the courts. I do believe, on the other hand, that Judge Garufis ignored these arguements along with things like FDNY's large expenditure on minority recruitment. Hizzhonor may be clueless, a power seeker, a firefighter hater (they are out there, you know), or read Chief Crokers speech out of context (The part about the Fireman's job is considered by some to be a lowly one.) Think what you may about Dennis Leary, but he said "Firefighters don't pull up to a building and ask 'What floors are the white people on?'" FDNY has has a black Chief of Dept, Augustus Beekman. NYC has had a black Mayor. We have a black president. Isn't it tme the civil rights acts and affirmitive action come to an end? If FDNY was really discriminatory, the whole population would be up in arms, not just the Vulcans.

Hired with no reading skills, no ability to do even the simplest math, failed a test that could be passed with flying colors by a grammar school "B" student? Yet he is given a job that requires a working knowledge of things like emergency medicine, physics, chemistry, building construction, laws, rules and regulations, hydraulics, and on and on. Who is the loser here? All of us! Every citizen of the communities affected by the laws passed by a clueless Congress, and enforced by the ludicrous interpretations by the Judicial Branch. It's not even the fact that we as taxpayers are funding all this idiocy. We are trusting our lives and the lives of our offspring to these ne'er do wells, because I only see it getting worse in the future. It's no longer "God Bless America," it's now "God Help America." If you are one of those persons who failed the FDNY test in question, you probably are unable to read this post. Please go to a firehouse and somebody there will be able to tell you what the big words mean, But you better hurry. In a couple of years there may be no one at the firehouse who can read either.

Me, too. I still think the rules of the English language say something like "If you are talking about both men and women you may use the masculine." The nuns beat me on the knuckles to get me to observe the rules of grammar, so to this day, they are stuck in my head. Watch the movie The Manchurian Candidate, an oldie, and you will understand my plight. Also, I would rather be correct in my grammar than politically correct. Telling things like they are is better than whitewashing them so no one's feelings get hurt. FYI, I was hired as a Fireman back in 1971. After about 2 years on the job my Department officially changed the job title to Firefighter. We turned in our old badges and were issued new ones that said Firefighter. We all know that we do a lot more than fight fires, but I fear the day will come when your badge will say "Fire Rescue Person." I'll stick with calling myself a Fireman. It was OK with Chief Croker, so it's OK with me. So, ladies, if I call you Brother, take no offense. It's just an old guy's term of respect.

Maul is not a tool in the South...it's a contraction as in "If you track those dirty boots across the carpet, Maw'll kill you."

George; I might have an answer for you on lack of posts. I just replied to your post and found that when I send a reply, there is a new green dot thing that appears on the screen. If i click on to something else before the "save" is finished, I can't find my reply.

WAAAAAY TOO MANY guys on that roof given the volume of fire and the amount of time it was burning. If it was a wood trussed roof, which it looks like it very well could be, there should be NO people on the roof. We fire service people have been arguing against lightweight wood trusses for many years now. Let's not prove our argument correct by losing two or three companies through a roof that we know will only last 20 minutes. Going defensive when encountering a worker in this type of building is not due to a lack of courage, it is the proof that we are right and the building trades are wrong.

This is about my third try to post this, but I think it's worth the effort

I tried to post this before, but it appears to have disappeared into cyberspace. Sorry. If you've been looking to open it before, just be aware that I couldn't find it either, so here's a restart: The scene: Fire in an upper floor living room of a multiple dwelling. Sprinkler system controlled the fire, but the building's fire pump activated, feeding one head with 150psi. (As you know, a sprinkler head is made to operate at 15psi min) Consequently, the entire room and contents was soaked, and there was a potential for a lot of water damage to floors below. A quick thinking Captain noted that there was almost a straight line to the bathroom door, pulled out a utility knife and cut two cuts in the carpet between the living room and bathroom. The cuts were as wide apart as a squeegee blade or push broom. He had his company remove the toilet and rip up the carpet and padding from where he cut the channel. I talked to one guy in his company who said that water removal was easy. You are never too old to learn something.

I was impressed by this salvage maneuver. The Captain who thought of it on-the-spot gets an "Attaboy" from me. The scenario: Small fire in the living room of an upper floor apartment in a multiple dwelling. Sprinkler activation of one head controlled the fire, but caused the building's fire pump to kick in, feeding the one head with 150psi. (As you know, sprinklers are made to operate at 15psi). Needless to say, this soaked the furniture and carpets completely, and eventually water was going to go to the floors below. A bathroom was close by, so the Captain took his sheetrock knife and cut a challel from the living room to the bathroom door as wide as a push broom or squegee. He had his crew pull up the carpet and padding where he had made the cuts and remove the toilet. The "canal" made the squeegee job pretty easy.