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DHS/FEMA AFG/SAFER grants aren't so easy to get; congrats on a big $ score to the dept. SAFER funding usually runs for a period of three years, before it expires. Unless they changed the rules, since I was involved in grant writing with my dept only until '06 when I retired. SAFER is start-up money to help municipalities get the positions established. Way before the 3 years, the city/dept needs to pre-plan and budget appropriately to continue the funding for the positions after the grant money is gone. The rules regarding this money (and how it must be used) are laid out pretty strictly by Federal statute Chris, so there usually isn't anything else going on; except funding for staffing.

Chief, Could you elaborate on the circumstances regarding your dept. LODD and the tanker? (Condolences to RFD belatedly) Was it the 10 speed, high capacity tanker that was involved in the accident? Are "water" tanks baffled horizontally as well as standard verticle liquid baffles found in most tankers? If not does the NFPA standard call for baffle systems specifically designed for emergency vehicles? How much of Rockland is covered by a hydrant system? Kudos for taking a stand to get a frontline apparatus removed and replaced. What did you replace the rig with? (Maine notes: North Whitefield VFD covers my home in Maine. I support them during their fund drives, but they are so severely under-equipped and their equipment is so outdated. I think their "tanker" belonged to Mr. Moore one of the local farmers; who used it for milk at his farm previously.) So many places still need so much help. ~Good post and topic. I hope some of the members pick up on this thread and share their experiences and thoughts about tanker units in Westchester.

"The two firefighters died after their vehicle was overrun by fast-moving flames and rolled down a mountainside in Mount Gleason near Acton." I'm sure we'll get the chance to read the bios and about the families left behind; but what a terrible tragedy. To be "overrun" by flames while trying to get away in a rig........heartbreaking and horrifying. You gave it all to help your fellow man. Now you join the Worcester brothers, and the 9-11 brothers, and everyone else in the ultimate Hall of Heroes, where you are all very close to God now. ~Rest in Peace, we won't forget you......

Those that call it overkill are wrong. (Edit: Just IMHO of course)

TRUSS CONSTRUCTION: STILL KILLING FIREFIGHTERS. You know this thread is about the biggest advancement in modern firefighting. Let me digress for a second: THE GUSSET PLATE has proven to be one of the biggest SETBACKS to modern firefighting; and the failures of same have cost too many brothers the ultimate sacrifice. Knowing the construction type of the fire building BEFORE entering, should be as important and on everyone's mind, as is the air-level reading on their SCBA. Identifying and passing on construction characteristics to the IC could be firefighter life-saving information.

Exactly Chief, they only worked in Detroit right! I figured if anyone in here had the experience with it, it would be you. (I still think your post about the Halligan tool was one of the best ever BTW) We used to drill with the D.D.O.; it was always a running gag around the firehouse to refer to it (with the senior guys naturally). Actually Henry Campbell (my probie school Chief) was the first person I ever heard about it from. I think Henry was Chief in Detroit in 1885 when it was 1st invented (and you guys thought he did most of his time in FDMV)!

I had this sinking feeling in my stomach, and get it every time I read about an LODD out in the VAST "no hydrants zone" of the country. "An East Charleston, Vt. volunteer firefighter was killed Aug. 30 after being ejected during a tanker rollover." Sure enough; "AFT" (another f'in tanker) that feeling I was getting in my stomach. I recently viewed a group of photos on here, where the members ran a tanker drill. It looked like a well run drill. But d@mn, the fire service HAS to do something about the design of these tankers or something. Maybe "cross-baffles" in the tank itself? Something. ~Rest in Peace.

Another day, more bad news on the national front. Here's your confirmation link; two firefighters LODD in CA. where it appears the proverbial is really hitting the fan: http://news.sky.com/skynews/Home/World-New..._Out_Of_Control

Well isn't that the coolest illustration.....good forensic investigating there guy.

BRAVO. (standing and applauding)

Without a doubt "The Detroit Door Opener." Oh wait, did you mean the 1880's or 1980's.......

Great fire photo, terrible fire, I remember this one; lived in Ossining in the mid-seventies so it caught my eye when it burned years later. Ossining High School up the hill there. Brings back a lot of memories. Nice town.

I have to give the Chief props for being responsive to the memberships' concerns. We've all known Chiefs who take things and round-file them; "I'm the Chief" is their standard answer. A responsive Chief who understands that respect within the ranks is shared from top to bottom, is going in the right direction (IMHO). I don't neccesarily think that a "speed tweak" in the policy is the way to go, but I honestly don't know every detail of said policy. When I was blogging about a "balance" in a response policy, what I was thinking is that the people who DO the job should have as much input as possible to try and strike that balance before a policy is either written or revised. A very good post in here by a Chauffer explained the difference as he saw it; clear and non-clear intersections and how carefully he delivers his company to the scene. The problem as I still see it comes down to technical terminology. When a policy states " emergency apparatus will STOP at every intersection when responding to an emergency", can't you guys see how that could become something that could be used against you as the Chauffer? Surely and rightfully if you are blowing through intersections with no regard, speeding and basically not belonging behind the wheel in the first place. But what about the Chauffer who is conciensious, does his/her best to comply with the demands of the job requirement, and comply with a written policy, who comes to a "nearly-full" type stop, when the rig holds a bit of momentum, and then some yokel comes speeding up from the side to get his dumb @ss stuck under your wheels? "Well, did you stop?" the Chauffer is asked by an investigating Chief. "Yes sir, I slowed the rig to a crawl, things were clear, I began to move forward and this Mazda Miata comes out of nowhere and crashes into the front side bumper." Guess what? If the policy says "stop" and you say "crawl", you just admitted to violating the stop policy, and are probably headed for more heat; either with the dept. or with lawyers for the plaintiff. That's why a word like stop can be your best friend or your worst enemy. A policy IMHO should be written to provide maximum protection for the firefighter who is trying their best to perform their job function safely and effectively. In this case saying something in the policy like "responding apparatus should slow to a near-stop, check the intersection, and if perceived to be safe by the officer, may continue on. The apparatus operator will stop completely at said intersection if it not apparent at the time that it is both clear and safe to proceed." Now this policy (once again IMHO) is designed to protect the conciencious operator, hold irresponsible ones to account, and not have too serious an effect on the objective of the mission. Edit: for spelling

"You feel compelled to be here and do the right thing," said Kevin Kroth, a firefighter with the New York City Fire Department's famous Rescue 1 unit. "We've lost a lot ourselves over the years, and everyone supported us." Attendees donned shoulder patches from as far away as Calgary, Dallas and Washington State, all demonstrating the UNDEFINABLE FRATERNITY THAT COMES WITH THIS PROFESSION, said John Caufield, chief of the Rochester Fire Department. http://www.buffalonews.com/home/story/777561.html

And now comes this news out of Binghamton NY: Commission recommends closing Engine 6, 4th busiest in the city. Really, the stupidity is just befuddling. http://news10now.com/content/top_stories/4...mp;ap=1&MP4

From the article: "In July, Boston eliminated two of its 11 fire districts and implemented rotating brownouts for three out of 34 engine companies and one of 22 ladder companies, based on absences." This sounds like a slightly different version of what I read about "roster staffing" when it was first implemented at FDNY. Instead of browning out a company, to cover open slots at companies, they had firemen riding around the city on public buses with their turnout gear, cutting the staff one place to fill another. Talk about a nickel-dime operation. So they talk about cuts to libraries, parks, recreation........and then cut right to PUBLIC SAFETY? Talk about playing with fire. Where are ANY cuts coming out of the CITY HALLS? No talk about eliminating redundant political posts, or staff there we see. Where are any cuts (besides California) coming out of these ridiculously expensive, sometimes failing school systems? And then the Fire Departments in lower Westchester get together with an efficiency plan; and what are the public officials doing about it? I wonder how long you'd have to hold your breath for the school districts that cover the same area as the Westchester FD concept, to come out with their own consolidation plans or ideas for efficiency. On their own, going to a consultant, etc. Still trying to hold your breath? Me neither. The way things are going in this country, FD work is definately going to start heating up. You get enough unemployed people out in the streets, young guys with nothing better to do than kick a can around, then the unscrupulous landlords are going to come out like vultures. I pray that I'm wrong but I forsee a HUGE spike in arson jobs on the way. Anybody remember the lecture from FLSTP about the socio-economic conditions that lead to "The War Years?" History tends to repeat itself. Stand ready brothers.

Seth, what are they using for communication? I seem to remember it used to be the tillerman or chauffer would press a "bell button" of some sort; one bell for ___, 2 bells for ____, 3 bells for HOLY____! (Edit: Maybe I'm just thinking of the old back step bell system) It's gotta be headset on the West Coast, but what is the norm for East Coast city tiller trucks? Have we all finally gotten on the same page about maybe one thing all the way across the country? I could imagine a Chauffer pressing a button on his headset "LEFT TURN COMING UP." Tillerman "KAY." And you know talking about tractor-trailers, what would be the harm in equipping a tiller truck with a jake brake (for the trailer wheels only, operated by the tillerman who sees serious harm coming?) I know they help straighten out tractor-trailers during a jacknife. Maybe it could be too confusing, having two sets of feet on the brakes? Just curious as I never had any tiller experience. Any info you (or any tillerman out there) could provide would be enlightening. ~Thank you!

JBE it sounds like the mayor is trying to make emergency dispatch look more like his Bloomberg newsroom than anything Emergency Services related. It might be great for all the newspeople to run around a big room and create great business news frenzy; it sounds like a terrible idea to me to try it for the FDNY and all the other agencies you described. Aren't you folks going to need new "sound reducing headsets" to shut out the other boroughs, and agencies from bleeding over onto your transmissions? One of the greatest aspects of the FDNY is the professionalism and calmness of dispatch. There are very few if any that do it as well. With all of this "newsroom chaos", God forbid NY gets another bad attack, that room is going to be a screaming nightmare. I really wish you the best with the transition (if it has to be), and can only hope they can make improvements as YOU need and describe them for ALL of you as quickly as possible. How about a little compartmentalization of boroughs, or agencies with at least cubicles, or did they already do that? You also elluded to OEM at one point. What is their take on this whole thing? Are they pro-brain or pro-kissin' it?

Good ole' Hap 602 K. HAPpy birthday to one of the most distinguished voices at "W"KED-281, 60Control on your radio dial. Tune in daily

That's not a bad idea!

As usual Barry you've brought up some interesting points. However: 1.There were two posts on this thread commenting on the POV. I removed one because a member reminded me it was more important to focus on the apparatus featured here. This does not make the thread "more concerned" with the POV (2 out of 7 posts). 2. The Austin thread discussion as I remember it wasn't about speeding or "slowing down" as you put it. It was about having to literally STOP for every traffic signal. It supposedly is for the "protection against liability" for Austin firefighters, I think it is exactly the opposite. Time will tell. I don't recall any comments advocating speeding, and don't think you'll find anybody advocating what happened here. You also said "One comment on the Austin Thread was what if it was your family trapped down the block in a fire those few seconds could make the difference." Actually if it is my comment you are refering to (not sure) I stated to the effect; imagine you were responding a rig down an avenue in Manhattan, and could see 30 blocks up, fire blowing out the windows of an OMD, and you had to stop for every traffic light (because there is a light on every block for 30 blocks and Murphy's Law says every one of them will be red, disregarding getting a run of green). If you'd indulge me, I'd like to expand. You have clear intersections, clearly seen and communicated by a chauffer, and officer. It's 3 AM. You are hitting red lights; policy dictates you STOP at all of them. That means loss of foward momentum/velocity of the rig. How much time would you calculate that would cost a 30 ton tower ladder? If we guess 5 seconds, 3 to stop 2 to accelerate; that translates into 2 minutes and 30 seconds additional response time for 30 blocks. Not good IMHO. 3. This comment is in NO WAY a judgement on what happened in Raleigh. I will convey to you stories I was told from old timers of the days of tiller trucks in my dept (retirement disclaimer inserted here). Sometimes the Chauffer "had it out" for the tillerman, and used to make sharp turns right out of the barn to mess with the guy. Sometimes it was done in a "joking" fashion (sick stuff right?). I've heard a story of a tiller truck making too fast a turn and wiping out (thankfully only) half a dozen parked automobiles. I think the article here alludes to the point that the Chauffer in Raleigh might have made a last second decision to make the turn, not giving the tillerman time to react (they were responding to a reported structure fire that turned out to be a minor alarm). 4. Seth pointed out that in his opinion in Austin, the Chief might have been forced to accept the new "traffic signal policy" from City Attorneys; people who know very little to nothing about responding in fire apparatus, nor the difference 1 minute can make as to whether a victim lives or dies, but rather saw a couple/few incidents in Austin, looked at the bottom line $$ and instituted a (my words here) draconian policy. You can say what you want about whether you agree/disagree with the Austin policy; I did and stand by my comments in that thread, and also with bringing this video forward for firefighters here to view and think about. I do not find anything inconsistent with those postings. 5. Going back and counting, "most" posts in the Austin thread were NOT complaining about the new policy, rather supporting it in one form or fashion. 6. Further information about the accident: http://www.raleigh-nc.org/portal/server.pt...0-16500954.html

I know there's a thread already about this news. I'm hoping Admin. doesn't consolidate this thread into that one, for the simple reason this will hit page three at least on that thread, and probably get missed by many members. Thought this was worthy of further attention. Note: The radio traffic runs from the tones to 30 minutes of the operation, but ends before the MAYDAY. You can really hear the effort the brothers made to try and reach reported victims. There is also a video on the page. The audio may raise questions in your mind. I think out of respect for the two lost members, their families & BFD, we should refrain from any second guessing or speculation, or what ifs, about this event chronicled here. Now just isn't the time. http://www.ecfwire.com/page226.html Edit: Reviewing the original Topic I found R1SE had this link up in that thread much earlier.

Point well taken. I've removed the comment I posted about the POV. However, I think it's obvious from the article that the Raleigh FD is doing exactly what you said; focusing on the operation of the truck.

I was thinking the same thing, but the artist rendition makes it look like it's a lot more than just a firehouse; maybe they attached a new public library, or city hall as well?

I can't think of a more appropriate use of a helicopter than an assist on a job like this. It's my understanding that pot plants give off big heat; easily spotted from the air, with the help of thermal imaging. Congrats to the agencies involved. Another thing I have to add is I think sometimes too many of us take the operation of a LE helicopter for granted. A couple of days ago I posted a link to a story about 4 soldiers dying in a BlackHawk during a training mission in Colorado. Flying is a dangerous business. LE helicopters work in extremely difficult operations; adding to that danger. We should all take a minute to remember that. Guys like Chris; LE's eye in the sky provide an invaluable service to help keep the rest of us safe. Therefore I thank them.