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Saw a piece on the news yesterday. the founder of TheBravest.com has started a petition to obama to stop these reckless trials in NYC, and not give an international stage to these terrorists who masterminded the 9/11 attacks, brutally cut off Wall Street reporter Daniel Pearl's head in Pakistan, etc. 10,000 signatures yesterday. Join up if you believe giving these murderers an American trial with some lib lawyer like Ron Kuby trying to get them off on some technicality, is an abomination of American justice. Give these murderers the military tribunals at Gitmo that they deserve. http://www.thebravest.com/neverforget.htm http://www.thebravest.com/ObamaLetter110909.htm

I guess while you were replying I was editing. Stay safe.

Thank you as well. My response has been to post the link to the letter from Tim Brown the founder of TheBravest.com, to the President, and ask all members here to sign it. It was the begining of this thread. As far as running for public office, I know there is a member here who has done so, and contributed to his campaign. I believe I served my community in a capacity far greater than any locally elected official does or did, so no I personally won't be running for office anytime soon. The thrust of my response was to encourage the brother named to express his views, as well as my own take on this sordid state of affairs happening regarding the terrorists who killed our FDNY/NYPD/PAPD Brothers and Sister. If I might add, that Sister's name was Moira Ann Smith, NYPD. Her funeral was on St. Valentine's Day, February 14, 2002. I did not know her nor did my girlfriend at the time(also a Police Officer), but we attended her funeral at Cathedral of Saint Patrick in NYC. As we stood at attention I'll NEVER FORGET as the black limo drove by and Officer Smith's baby daughter was sitting in the window of the car. This is why we are fighting two wars. Goose is much closer than that. I know I'm still mad as h#ll about 9/11, I can only imagine how people who lost family feel. If opining helps the brother get something off his chest, I think that might help him and others here as well. And the others here with different opinions or political viewpoints? As long as they don't violate the decorum here, that's what this is all about right?

Congrats on the save and the well deserved honor Captain Palmer!

"City officials defended the system, saying that it has improved response times — this October the average was 3 minutes 56 seconds, down from 4 minutes 12 seconds last October — and that the old system was also subject to human error. The response time for Saturday’s fire was 4 minutes 55 seconds, according to the Fire Department. “It’s a new system; it’s a system that’s seen as an improvement,” said Jim Long, a Fire Department spokesman. “Like with any change, there are things to be worked out.” Tell that to another greiving family.

With all respect, Goose is in the proper forum to express his opinions, and I agree with him on many points. Some of the other posts here are self-conflicting. So the arguement is; we hold up to our "moral standards", give KSM a trial in the Southern District of NY Courthouse (I served on a grand jury in that building in 1983 and indicted quite a few criminals including a rogue CIA agent who was trying to sell weapons to Libyia), we try him and POSSIBLY convict him, then maybe execute him and that will prevent ten more generations of jihadis? As opposed to making him a martyr by giving him what HE wants, a military tribunal, where he will be executed. Hmm. So we show the young Taliban that our "justice system" works, and that will prevent the jihad huh? I seriously doubt that one brothers. No matter what we do, they are going to continue to try and wage war on this country. They HATE our freedoms, they hate our society, and they could care less about where KSM is tried. WAKE UP. We are dealing with an enemy that willingly killed themselves to bring down the WTC. Their most popular fashion statement is a suicide vest, and their cowardly way of waging war is planting IEDs. Taliban and their murderous cohorts only respect one thing; the ability to do violence. This will not change during this or subsequent generations; so we should all suck it up, REMEMBER what happened, and continue to pursue these men until they do not have the ability to fight us anymore. Our Generals and troops are waiting for more soldiers in Afghanistan; this President should get off his high horse and make a decision about how many more to get in there to get the job done. The saying is; Afghanistan has never been conquered, and it brings down Empires. We are a Republic, a Democracy, but we are not an Empire. We do not conquer; we destroy the enemy and help rebuild countries like Iraq and Afghanistan, and give the place back to the people. Want an example? How about Japan or Germany? This AG has conflicts of interest; his former law firm represents Yemeni nationals like the hoodlums accompanying KSM. He should have recused himself from this case. Instead, he and the current administration have opened the door to allow terrorists to possibly walk away from justice. All it takes is one juror. Let's say we get a jihadi sympathizer on the jury. He tells no one of his secret hatred for this country. BANG. Game over, KSM gets a mistrial, and the millions of dollars it just took to uphold our "morals and principles" goes down the drain. Opening the door of our Republic and the rights entitled to it's citizens to wartime criminals from other countries is the biggest mistake EVER made during a war. The President may be a bright young guy, a smart college guy; but he don't know s#it about how to beat these jihadis, and he'd better start listening to those who do, or we are in serious trouble.

Live coverage on C-Span 3 right now 0930 hours 11/18/09

You know what? If this American woman was a terrorist in Peru, she should be in a Peruvian military jail for the rest of her life, and be thankful the gov't down there didn't take her out back and execute her by firing squad. Hypocracy be d@mned; KSM and his croonies deserved to be waterboarded to death. The h@ll with ANYBODY in this world that doesn't like it. And to have the PResident of the United States playing King of All @sskissers; the guy just BOWED to THE FREAKING EMPEROR OF JAPAN (THE PRESIDENT DOES NOT BOW TO ANYONE!!!!!!) or was his shoe untied again like it was in Saudi Arabia? It's embarrasing to watch. And you mark my words, KSM and these people WITH THE HELP OF TAXPAYER FUNDED PUBLIC DEFENDERS (Yes NOW WE WILL HAVE TO PAY FOR THEIR LAWYERS TOO) are going to make a mockery of our "justice system" and laugh in the faces of the families who lost loved ones on 9/11. REALLY NICE.!!!!!! And this obama administration doesn't want to call the Ft. Hood attack an act of TERROR? Are these people on crack or just plain stupid? My gf and I just moved to the Florida Keys because we are so sick of all the bulls#it going on in this country, we wanted to get as far away as possible. Next stop; we're thinking Costa Rica.

With all due respect, did you happen to read the signed names on the original petition? Mostly 9/11 family members. Did you read the connection between A.G. Eric Holder's former lawfirm and Yemen? The question is; shall we support the 9/11 families position, or shall we give American civil liberties to people that plotted war from foreign soil? Did we do that at Neurenburg?

I'd like to express my gratitude to all members past and present of the mighty American Military. I remember going to my great-grandmother's house in the Bronx as a child, where she had two hard cover books that covered World War II in images and text. That was my introduction to learning what soldiers do, and what the hell of war looks like. Being at the tail end of the baby-boomer generation, I was too young for Vietnam and already on the job for the first Gulf War. Growing up in that period of relative peace as a teen, the military slipped out of my thoughts. It was like Vietnam was over and I think many of us thought during those times that war would be over forever. When the first Gulf War came, with General Shwartzkopf (sorry for the mispell) and Colin Powell, and the way we ran over the Iraqis with minimal casualties when taking back Kuwait, I thought the military had advanced to the point where ground war and casualties were a thing of the past. Then came the jihadis and their cowardly terrorist attacks. Suddenly, we in New York were in Pearl Harbor. Suddenly the most sickening act of mass murder had taken 343 FDNY firefighters, 23 NYPD & 37 PAPD cops, and thousands of civilians. In the aftermath, one of the powerful memories was the President standing with the brothers in the wreckage of The World Trade Center, and basically saying "it's payback time baby", and the military would take it from there. Hindsight is always perfect. Who could have thought how forcefully our troops walked over Iraq (all the way this time) and took the fight to the jihadis? People always question, "why Iraq"? My opinion is Iraq was the kind of terrain where our soldiers could engage in urban combat (which they had been training for), and the jihadis could basically walk to the fight. And walk to the fight they did, and many many thousands of them were summarily dispatched to meet their god which they desired so much, and our troops fulfilled their wish. But Iraq II showed us that ground combat was still just as bloody as it was in those pictures I saw of WWII in my great-grandmother's book. Even with all our tech advancements, and the drones are kicking @ss no doubt over on the Pakistan/Afghanistan border, our troops still have borne a bloody battle, and suffered many casualties. A very large oversight was not being prepared for IEDs, and using Humvees that were not battle ready. How many troops did we loose from roadside bombs? Too many. Every time I see a report of soldiers being KIA, I am reminded of 9/11/2001, the Pearl Harbor of our generation, where it all started. Our military is relentless. They have pursued and eliminated the enemy they enagage, and these dumb assed politicians should NEVER FORGET; and let the military finish the job that began on 9/11. I offer my respect and thanks to all who are Veterans, and all who continue to carry the fight to the enemy. The United States of America may be pretty screwed up right now; the deficit spending of the gov't, the declining dollar, some areas of this country are in virtual depression, yet the Army, Navy, Marines & Air Force continue to perform with such excellence. I'm not insensitive to too many deployments for our troops. I think we need to reinstitute the draft. It would help with the unemployment; 48% of people aged 18-24 are unemployed right now; the draft would put some of these people to work, and build up our forces to give relief to the FEW who volunteer and then are asked to rotate in and out of two wars for too many deployments. It's like the old third guy on the match annalogy; pushing your luck too far. God Bless America and all her Veterans.

A member of this forum has asked me to put forward the question (he's busy chasing bears out of his backyard in Pennsylvania). Another member of this forum, a well respected, retired Chief from the FDMV is about to celebrate 50 years of involvement in the fire service. So, the question; how has the fire service advanced over the past 50 years? I guess we're technically talking about 1959 as the approximate start date. I'm going to start off with a simple few. If you'd add your responses and give a little input as to how the subject you mention has been an advancement, it could be funny, informative, whateva: 1. Enclosed cabs on the rigs. The reason this was done, originally by the firefighters themselves until the manufacturers caught on, was to prevent objects being hurled at them in urban areas, when firefighters represented authority and American cities were burning down at an alarming rate due to socio-economic reasons, and the anti-war movement. 2. Bunker Gear as it is today. Allows for better protection of the firefighters body, allows members to search deeper, and do a more effective job at saving lives. 3. S.C.B.A. The old time smoke eaters were basically breathing natural burning materials, wood, fabric, etc. With the development of plastics and other toxic materials in furniture and construction, it become apparent that the old way wouldn't work anymore if you wanted members to actually stay alive for the course of their careers; alas the S.C.B.A. became less of a sign of "weakness" and more of a sign of "smarts". Let's see if we can take this thing to 50. Thanks in advance for any responses.

Thanks for all your responses bros. Here's a few more items from memory lane that have gone the way of the Detroit Door Opener; into retirement: bells on fire apparatus, The cooper hose jacket (that's a goodie), searchlight units, claw tool, Unique Shaped Leather Helmets, brass couplings and fittings, rubber turn-out coats, red fireball gloves, fire alarm boxes & town sirens (thanks for the list Danny) The point of this thread was to give the retired Chief things to stir the memory, and to show how far the fire service has come, or maybe still has to go. I think we accomplished that somewhat so Happy 50 Years In The Fire Service FDMV Chief of Department Henry Campbell (ret.)!! Many of us in this forum have much to thank you for; our training, your leadership, and it was always fun marching down The Avenue with you on St. Patrick's Day; you cracking jokes that made some of us have to get out of line and find a head because we were laughing too hard. Stay well as you start your next 50.

34. The Fog Nozzle. Was this an advancement.......? I've often wondered.

28. Automatic transmissions in the apparatus. I can just imagine some of the old timers, when standard shift transmissions were the norm, and how smooth they must have been in the face of pulling up to a job, and having to press the clutch, throw the pump mpo, and engage the clutch smoothly. We had a 55 La France pumper three speed, gas motor, and even though it was by then the spare engine, we drove it and practiced, and occassionaly used it in service. Now who remembers their early days as a Chauffer, and you got in the rig for a run and your legs were all shaky? And I'm talking modern automatic transmission days now. Still was a challenge right? That's what gave me the appreciation for all the guys before us, who drove those standard shift pumpers, open cabs, through snowstorms, frozen plugs, and cotton lined hose and still got those aerials up and the water flowing. On a side note: GO YANKEES!

23. Hand held CO detectors: Took the death of Vitas Geralitis the tennis star, for the general public to freak out about the dangers of CO. The manufacturers followed with a bevy of detection devices, and then instead of having to light a match above the hot water tank to see if it was getting a draft, firemen got hand held units to check CO levels. Added to the runs as well.

That's a good point; especially when you consider truss construction.

Thanks for that info Barry. I didn't know that. Always thought the rigs were open to the cool breezes for eternity until we somehow became the enemy and had to fortify the rigs.

19. Diesel exhaust extraction systems: finally after decades of sucking in fumes in the barn, the members have good extraction systems. No more fans, no more open the barn door, etc. Probably everybody in the the business knows of brothers who checked out of this life early because of some strange cancer. We had ours. And hopefully never again.

18. The Rabbit Tool: yes this old backbreaker was indeed a groundbreaker for firefighting in all those type 1 multi-dwellings with metal doors and frames. One member could now forseeably do the work of two forcible entry crews using the irons. Then the SWAT development of the Hydra Ram made that function even easier for the firefighter. Lighter, easier to negotiate, the Hydra Ram is one bad @ss little tool no doubt.

Dan I wasn't directing my comments specifically towards your post, I'm sorry if you thought so. It's just that the FDMV quagmire has been on my mind a lot through the years. You won't find a nicer group of brothers than the FDMV guys I've known through the years; and that starts with the 1st combined training class up at the academy and (at the time) Deputy Chief Henry Campbell, Lt. Ed Bruno, Lt. John Stewart and the other fine officers who helped mold that rag-tag bunch of knuckleheads including me and Joey Fiorello (God rest his soul) into a good firefighting force. I always hoped for better things for the FDMV brothers. They had a heavier fire load than most in the county, and yet they lagged behind in pay, and it was just like the job was down on it's luck; yet the members there couldn't be a nicer and more dedicated group of firemen. I have a lot of respect for the FDMV and it's fine traditions. Hopefully through so many controversies they can find the wherewithall to get it together.

The Emerald Society historically is an ethnic organization; the Irish. The Columbus guys were the Italians. So the vulcans are the black guys. If you wanna talk the turkey about it here you go; There was never a perceived need to promote from an ethnic group because it was a white job mostly. The traditions of the job we cherish and love and pass on from generation to generation, was not part of the black culture. Then they started hiring black guys. So the "national" issue of "affirmitive action" came down on the FDMV. The black population in Mount Vernon has the political power right now. Any political power is going to use situations to further their agenda. But along the way good things have happened. I think the black guys (as an outsider now) have come around to agree with the white guys as to what is fair or not. The word I heard from (oh jeez I'm usin the grapevine) New Haven was that the ruling was a non-issue for the membership up there. Now there is a similar situation in FDMV and I for one am confident that the Firefighter involved in that issue is right and true and has that on his side. And when you go to court and show the truth, that's what it's about. I have no idea why Chief Everett was canned or whatever happened down there; that's insider stuff that outsiders have no idea really. Now this new chief has his hands full. We'll have to wait and see how it all plays out. But if the black power structure wants to deal with the truth, they will promote Jody Carroll. That can be a watershed for the FDMV and maybe start a healing process, and a sharing of values and what not to make the job one again. Show the vulcans about the culture of being a buff. How much we love and respect the job. There is common ground to make it work if the vulcans want to unclench their fist to a handshake to paraphrase POTUS. Once again this is just and observation from an outsider. If anybody is offended by my opinion I assure you I did not intend to do it when I was writing. But I mean, where are the Vulcans on this website? Why are they not in the discussion? That might help.

Looks to me like another smart development brought forward in the fire service. Like the brother was saying, use this carefully, right? Don't wanna bring hell down on the interior ops. A good coordinated approach in a Type 1, and this baby could be very useful.

As with most rumors, you heard wrong bro. In the future, I'd appreciate if before you want to bring up my dad's name in this forum based on rumor with no facts; private message me first. I would be happy to provide you with accurate information. ~Stay safe Captain George Glover Jr. (ret) Eastchester Fire Department Edit: To the younger brothers; study your supervisor textbooks and learn how to avoid "the grapevine." This is a classic example of how the grapevine is not helpful in the fire service. It can be used for any nefarious purpose, and if you buy into it you're only going to be misled.

Reading about this "incident", a sign we've all seen along the roadways comes to mind; "GIVE 'EM A BREAK, LET 'EM WORK"

Belated condolences to the Joyce family and the Yonkers Fire Department family. I've been traveling for the past month and away from computers. When I heard about this tragedy that next morning, I became physically ill from it. God bless his beautiful family. It must be an extremely hard time for his daughters, and I know the Yonkers Fire Dept. family will step up and help nuture them through their years. Eternal rest grant unto him oh God, and may perpetual light shine upon him. Amen