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Yes at the least. Should be more than that; from my memory of living on Centre Ave for a good ten years I was thinking what New Rochelle has rolled on some companies in the past. Also counting the seats in the cab. did I miss a couple? I thought the command board slide out and cabinets took two seats out of the cab. Should have an officer, absolutely. That's why they call the front seat the officer's seat. Maybe Captain Nechis wants to update us as to how they've been getting the rig out on alarms. I think what you are saying is you don't think they are responding the company with enough members right now? Based on what you're saying they rolled, yes.

They don't hire for OT bro, they call members in. If your opinion is the Rescue should be staffed with 3 members, I'd say optimally the rig should roll, 1 officer and 4 firefighters.

I know one member here was peeved that the discussion has as much of, if not more to do with FAST/RIT than the actual Mohegan Lake fire title at this point. Well, the board is a bit short on information about this particular incident right now, maybe more will come in. In the meantime, to see this much discussion and interest in FAST/RIT work, is in my opinion FANTASTIC. Not so many years ago, I remember many Incident Commanders grappling with the concept of RIT; being resistive of it because in many cases the arguement was there wasn't adequate manpower for the fire attack, let alone dedicating members to "do nothing" but stand-by, watch and the key ingredient "be ready." The OSHA standard has been effective in that the discussion has evolved to this point; where being RIT qualified is actually additional training, a different mindset on the fireground, and departments have moved up to, and are maybe still challenged by the standard. Firefighter Survival has become "mandatory" for RIT, as has the actual RIT training. It has been incorporated into the standard curriculum for firefighter training. Tools, techniques, improvements, have exploded from being rare, to being standard. I'm glad I lived to see this day.

One of the biggest mistakes I ever made in my earlier years, was asking another member over the air to not forget to pick up a certain cooking item. Got my chops busted about that for ten years...... Another knucklehead brother (just retired recently after over three decades of dedicated service) did a Plectron test count in Italian once... Guys transmit "attitudes" over the air constantly... 45M2 has forever made an indelible mark on the audio transcripts. I guarantee you she/he will be hearing about it for a very very long time. Years ago at a certain "animal house mentality" type police department, which has completely changed it's ways BTW, the radio was incredibly full of in-house political commentary. Open mikes tapping on the dashboard were a staple of these transmissions. Sometimes it went on for minutes. If the sectors didn't like what somebody was saying, they let them know about it; quite blatantly. Times have changed. Now THEY know who is keying up... I'm not going to judge the comment's appropriateness, however it was quite witty imho. The boss might have something to say about it, might not. Chance you take. Sometimes it depends on who you are; if you're on the A Team or the B Team as many jobs are split. Sometimes it's in the timing. Dead day, dead air....... I told the story already about the city fire officer who upon arrival at a fire said "10-84, 10-75 the box and a very Merry Christmas to you too Bronx..." Rare. Sometimes a classic. Sometimes, as in my case; ammo against you.

I'm going to take a wild guess and say.........New Fairfield, CT or West Haven, CT

Tomaré lo gracias!

Thanks for posting the actual wording of the law, that's cool. Yes, there are technical ways to mess with the implementation of the Statute; sure one wants to put the RIT to work, and have another group of guys assemble for potential rescue, one could probably jurymander something together. And it would also be a "cluster." Firegrounds are confusing enough, the rules are already complicated, an IC has many many things to be thinking about and performing. That's why SOPs are put in place; to make some kind of orderly fashion out of the semi-controlled chaos. The last thing he/she should be doing, once again IMHO, is making the fireground MORE confusing by switching players around. Edit: for wording. Also, there are other paragraphs in the statute which address what RIT/FAST/2 Out, should be prepared with. Words like "appropriate" are more than significant than one might think at first glance, and I'm sure lawyers know how to interpret them. Siting this law was the basis and core of a narrative we used to win a RIT grant from FEMA is 2003's AFG. Simple words in the statute were key to being succesful in that effort.

Thanks to both of you. Interesting interview. The chief sure had his facts ready. It's hard for me to understand that the effort they've been making, plus 20 million dollars spent for recruitment, hasn't been at least acknowleged by the judge who ruled against the department. C'mon already! What more are they supposed to do? Glad to hear it sounds like Bloomy and his administration are going to appeal that ridiculous ruling. A "stain" on the department? More like a stain on the judge's robe!

IF this is the case, it's a workplace violation of OSHA BFs 1910.134, which is THE law that established "2 in-2 out". Mandatory rescue team(s) will be in place for workers placed into an IDLH environment. IF a fire department goes to work, unless there is an immediate threat to life (whereby 2in-2out is put off), without proper RIT in place, and God forbid one or more of the brothers hails a mayday, and the RIT is not in place and ready to respond, it's a violation of OSHA law. Furthermore it's morally and ethically wrong, in my humble opinion. Any IC would be foolish to do it, and 99.9% of them know it. Disclaimer: I have not been privy to any information regarding this or any other incident and am making a comment based on the observations of the post quoted.

Psssst....Josh....you had it first the right time bro, engine not truck......lol Glad to see you made it back safe....

I heard they used the crane to lower that old Ford into it's final resting place...

Maybe let the Chinese do it? (Don't think they're quite ready yet. And I wish I hadn't included their photo in an earlier post!) http://calfire.blogspot.com/2010/01/haiti-chinese-usar-teams-appear-ill.html

Can you maybe post an updater later about what he said? I'd love to read about it.

I did a little reading and found that things are just a little bit different in Belgium, than they are here in America. Over 50% of the workforce is unionized in Belgium. They basically have three labor unions for the entire country. These three unions cover the full spectrum of workers, from civil servants to industrial workers. They are extremely active in politics, and exert strength through all levels of government; basically because all workers in Belgium benefit from these unions' organization and influence. Belgians enjoy higher wages, better benefits and social security than their European Union counterparts. Supposedly workers with computer skills are in short supply because of the availabilty of good paying jobs with little education required! Just be a Belgian. If you think our union protection is strong here in the United States, particularly in New York which has pro-labor laws, you should read about how much stronger it is in Belgium. Employees basically cannot be fired, anywhere, without a lengthy process which would include severance pay, and a court hearing. Everyone in the labor force is guaranteed sick-leave pay, family allowances and unemployment insurance amongst other benefits. These firefighters were probably hosing down some government buildings, where the bureaucrats all working inside are members of the same union! Everyone was pretty much laughing, including the cops who are probably in the same union as well. Union demonstrations are pretty much an accepted thing across Europe, and most people don't get too upset because they're probably members too. I'm including a link where I got some of this information. It's poorly written. Couldn't help but thinking it was by some highly paid, yet bad spelling, card-carrying, unionized Belgian. http://internationalbusiness.wikia.com/wiki/Belgium's_Labor_Unions Also thanks to JJB531 for starting the thread. It's been refreshing to read up on the web about a different society, with a very different approach to how that society is run.

In this photo, the firehouse itself looks very similar to EFD's Station 5. I'd bet it was the same architect. Love the rigs!

I know somebody other than me who watched the video is thinking this, so I'm going to pose the question: For a.....DOG in the water? While I give full credit to the members' performance at this alarm, I must ask; where is the "risk/reward" assesment for this type of response and subsequent rescue? I can understand the concern about civilians attempting an amateur rescue attempt, and putting their lives and thefore LAFD/PD members potentially at risk. But what about a sniper with a tranquilizer-dart gun and a net deployed a hundred or two yards down river? C'mon people, use your imagination here. What else could have been done? The brother who actually made the grab got multiple puncture wounds and bites from the animal. That was the hardest part of the video to watch. I was wondering if he had some extra protective gear on to prevent the dog from biting him; aside from his regular rescue gear. Guess not. *What if the dog is rabid? *What would critics be saying if the helo had a tragic accident during the rescue attempt? Do you think the Chief and other Commanders would be receiving any criticism/lawsuits from grieving familes/getting roasted in the press, etc? *Helo rescues as routine as they might be for a place like the Los Angeles basin, are still some of the riskiest operations undertaken by emergency services, are they not? Risk ALL OF THIS.....for a dog? Conclusion: IMHO, If I was making decisions at this incident (based on the limited information received in the post and on the video), I would never have put the helo rescue into operation. Nor would I have risked injury (which did occur) to any one of the firefighters. You know it can be heartbreaking to sit by and just watch as an animal struggles. Human emotion takes over; everyone wants to do something. BUT, somebody has to evaluate what the risk/reward is; and at the end of the day no firefighter's life is worth risking for an animal. As cold as that may sound, that's what "Incident Commanders" are paid to do; take the emotion out of the equation and make decisions in the best interest of those you serve and protect, YOUR TROOPS. ~Just an opinion, and once again give credit to all the brothers/sisters who performed their duties as ordered!

Updater: http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/lanow/2010/01/los-angeles-firefighter-recounts-daring-dog-rescue.html Apparently the "rescue" was shown live on both FOX and MSNBC. I stumbled upon this website while doing research this morning. The comments section from the general public reads very much like our thread here on BRAVO: http://yesbuthowever.com/los-angeles-fire-department-saves-dog-la-river-8136480/ The following are quoted comments from that site: This one is a real interesting take on the state of affairs in LA. (this guy might have some "issues"): Sometimes when a controversial topic is brought up on EMTBRAVO, some people on our board only see in posts what they want to see. I posted in support of everyone on the ground/in the air doing their duties, before concluding that the DECISION to perform the helo operation and the amount of resources deployed, the risk/benefit analysis, I disagreed with. Since then I'm finding through research how the task-force system utilized in LAFD can be very effective in deploying vast resources rather quickly. Learning is fun! The "I'm proud....blah blah" comments on our thread are redundant at this point. Back to BRAVO: It's really great to see the humanity of those who posted in support of the actions taken at this alarm, even though I disagree with you about the way this problem was solved. Thank you Chris for acknowledging my question about sedating an animal; I hope someone steps forward here who has further knowledge on the animal sedation subject and adds to what you have informed us of. I have to say though, that I am surprised at SOME of you who would equate this response and subsequent control of the alarm, to a "training exercise." I don't think I'm exaggerating if I say that NO department would ever conduct a training exercise with a chopper in the immediate vicinity of high-voltage wires, nor would they lower the rescuer and the training victim onto a roadway that moments earlier had free flowing traffic on it. This was by no means a controlled environment, and please correct me if I'm wrong; training exercises are conducted in CONTROLLED environments. So please to whomever, you want to support the canine rescue that's your opinion and right, but do not compare what happened during this incident to training. I have no experience operating choppers, being lowered out of one for a rescue, flying in darkness with night vision goggles, etc. But I have helped a few of them land at emergency scenes in my day. A few years ago on the Bronx River Parkway, we had a BMW that flipped over at a high rate of speed, pancaked the passenger compartment, and the driver suffered a fractured spine as a result. While we were cutting the roof off, the Medic decided he wanted a medivac chopper on scene, so we called for them. When the chopper arrived, an engine had been assigned, they had cones set up on the far end of the grassy area we were operating on, furthest away from the wreckage. Yet that did not prevent the chopper from nearly landing on top of the vehicle, and while doing so much of our emergency equipment was literally blown away. Yes, your oxygen bag will roll down the roadway very quickly if you happen to find yourself in a "prop wash." I remember looking up and saying to myself "so...this is how Vic Morrow felt in his last breathing moment!" Thankfully, the pilot's "situational awareness" saved us all. Since that event, I have never looked at chopper related incidents as "routine", and in my opinion there is an inherant danger at all times during helicopter operations. I have a close friend who suffered a major tib-fib compound fracture while in the NAVY. A chopper that was delivering mail was tethered to the ship with a steel cable. They used to slide the mail bags down the cable to the ship. Something mechanical happened, the chopper crashed into the ship, the sailor standing next to my bud was killed, as were the helicopter crew. Maybe some of you who think deploying a chopper should be an easy decision to make, will have to wait for some kind of incident with one to see things a bit differently. Try googling "Rescue helicopter crashes" for a start. FYI: This is a Los Angeles law firm that specializes in suing helicopter agencies with regard to personal injury or death: http://www.airplanecrash-lawyer.com/PracticeAreas/Air-ambulance-accidents.asp Lastly, I happen to love dogs and most other animals. My pet is a Senegal Parrot, he's getting to be fifteen now, soon he'll be chirping for his drivers licence. If you would like to follow up on your good will toward animals, I strongly suggest you consider making a donation to help support those most in need: http://www.aspca.org/donate/

The incident happened far enough away I thought we could hash it around a bit, without "offending" any of the members of this site; that's why I brought it up after the I.A. Kujo is based in San diego as I know it, so even he is not directly there. And he always does an excellent job reporting in from the West Coast. Hopefully we'll get more from him about this too. Thankfully as Chris pointed out here, the outcome was positive, except for the injuries to the firefighter. Similar to what I did with NIOSH fatality reports, giving an incident a good critique can be a great learning method, especially if none of us are directly involved, so no hurt feelings in the discussion. The only guy that can reasonably take humbrage with any comments here would be the IC from that job, who could come on here if he likes and give a full explaination of the events and circumstances leading up to this rescue mission..... (oh no here we go with that again!)

I'm not speaking for Bill. But I can tell you, having worked next to the man for many years, he brings considerable problem solving ability to the job. Many, many times he provided solutions to real issues, at real emergencies, in real time. Aside from him being a nudge, there isn't a more thoughtful man you nor I could have been priviledged to work next to. Whenever he spoke, I listened. Even when he was outwitting me, which was most of the time.

First thing is, can we cut the money issue out of the discussion? It was only raised because a member thought the department might get a donation due to their actions. They probably will, so that's great. I think all of "our hats are off" to the brothers/sisters. I'm sure they're "stand up guys." Most firemen, cops, ems, are. They carry the mantle of honor forward in their continued excellence in operations, saving lives, and doing "the right thing." Chief Crocker said it best about there being no greater honor. That isn't the question. It's about decision making, and priorities. ~Best to you.

Very interesting points Chris. Naturally most of us in this forum defer to you when it comes to helo issues, so your opinion is very important (IMHO lol). Let me ask you since you're also LE; *What else could they have tried? Do I have a valid question about a tranquilizer gun, and subsequent grabbing of the now neutralized dog in the minutes that followed? *How does LE assess whether or not an animal can/could be dangerous? In this case it sure looked like a big snarly Shepard, with large, nasty, pointy teeth! How could one know whether this was a ghetto guard dog trained to destroy, or Biffy and Buffy's (from the Hollywood Hills) lost and stranded loved one (unless the owner was on site)? *If the R/B analysis was complete, why wasn't the rescuer provided with appropriate protective gear? *Do "training exercises" take place during actual emergency deployment? *God forbid, I hate to even bring it up; if there was a helo tragedy wouldn't the question become "what were they attempting to do?" If it was for a child in the river we all know that you or any other responder involved with this type of equipment were doing exactly what we thought you would'should be doing. But now the question becomes.......for a "what"? *Agreed the $cost$ issue should never be considered in a R/B analysis. Thanks for sharing your thoughts with us.

I'm just wondering since so many career firefighters begin their affiliation with the fire service in volunteer companies; how many "black" brothers/sisters do we have volunteering in the tri-state area? Anybody from any volunteer agency, FD/EMS/Auxiliary Police please share with the forum if you have any minorities on your departments? What is the "percentage" of minority membership in volunteer emergency services? Seems that no "judge" would ever consider that members of volunteer departments gain valuable knowledge and experience while volunteering in their communities, and this often times leads to those members scoring well on city administered tests; and therefore getting a high enough grade to be hired. Did the judge in the latest ruling regarding FDNY membership even KNOW of the commitment that some members make, for many years, in volunteer agencies? I dare say....NOT!

I agree with you; "good job" to those who performed their duties. However LAFD is taxpayer funded, it does not rely on donations to run operations.

Rest in Peace Trooper Jill.....

For a group that calls themselves "Vulcans", they sure don't advocate anything "reasonable or logical" in this old Trekkie's mind, so they should start by changing the organization's name to something more appropriate... like "Angry Men."