JFLYNN

IF you or any other EMT Brave Members have friends or family in Yonkers, we would appreciate all the support that can be mustered in the way of phone calls and letters to elected officials. These days it seems that all the politicians are hearing is why are Cops and Firefighters making so much money and why are there so many of them? People are hurting economically and we are being looked at to take a big hit and I guess, in their eyes, solve all the problems. Problem is, on the Fire Department side, we are already undermanned, we all worked a day for free last year, and July 1 we will be finishing a full year with no contract and no raise and beginning a second year with no raise, so what is there to give back??? The actual numbers proposed tentatively by the Mayor on the Fire Department side are elimination of 2 Chief Positions, 6 Captain positions, 22 Lieutenant positions, and 14 Firefighter positions, which, due to bumping rights will result in demotion of 2 Chiefs, 8 Captains, 30 Lieutenants and layoff of 44 Firefighters. Maybe a bit less than that due to a couple of retirements. According to the Mayor, these numbers could go either up or down, depending on what happens with tax revenues, state aid, or union givebacks (unlikely at this time). So, we can use all the help we can get. Public opinion really does matter. As far as what companies will be closing no word yet. Also, I won't be getting into answering questions or debating any of this on here. I just wanted to supply the actual numbers as they stand right now and ask for help. Thanks and of course, qtip, I still don't.

That was very impressive. I would like to hear the entire speech.

Where is the first due engine located in relation to the fire? You mentioned "agressive interior attack"...how would you define that? What is a retone and why was it necessary? Thanks

On our job you would need to pose that question to a member of the JMA... But seriously, I don't think so. On our job the junior guys for the most part get it and show great respect for the senior guys, although they often do it with a very original sense of humor.

This is a good question and I agree that many may choose not to answer because they don't want to offend anyone and / or look in the mirror. I'll jump in though because I think this is an important topic. In the career fire service a good senior man should have several qualities...calm, confident, lead by example, minimal or no whining, an advocate for the men to the officers and an advocate for the officers to the men. A good senior man praises in public and criticizes in private. A good senior man does not take things personally nor does he make personal attacks. A good senior man does not need to be the most intelligent, skilled, or physically fit firefighter...he realizes that his years of experience entitle him to respect automatically and this respect will be lost only if he is dishonest, uncaring, a bully,or a loudmouth. A good senior man rarely, if ever, asks for special privilege due to his senior status. The less he asks, the more it will be given. Good senior men have many different styles and personalities but I have found the most effective, comforting, senior men to be the type who are more likely to be found quietly observing from a corner of the room than loudly carrying on in the middle of the crowd. Now, maybe we should talk about what makes a good junior man, because we can have the best Officers and senior men in the world, but if the guy or guys at the bottom and in the middle don't do their job and just want to blame their own bad attitudes and work ethic on those above them, all the best intentions of the bosses and senior men are useless.....

I think you're confusing me with someone else. I wouldn't want to take any credit for all the great work that our bailout rope committee members are doing. I am not involved and I have total confidence their efforts. These days I am mostly a paper pusher although I am a very interested observer of this issue. I do think one common problem that most departments, including ours, are going to have after spending all this time and money on selecting bailout rope systems is providing mandatory, ongoing, realistic training, as well as mandating that the systems be worn at all times and inspected regularly. The only way to do this for our own members benefit is to not only provide the opportunities for regular training, but to mandate that all members participate, and hold people accountable for not completing training as well as not regularly inspecting and wearing the systems. Accountability means someone has to be the "bad guy" and unfortunately too many fire service "leaders" are more concerned with being liked than with taking the necessary steps to increase firefighter health and safety...this would apply to many areas such as seatbelts, physical conditioning, regular, realistic training aimed at everyone not just at the junior guys who are still gung-ho, etc., but this is all a topic for another thread I guess....

"Professional" ?? I bet they think so...

I just emptied it

Good question Bob. I would also be interested to know, for the departments which have been issued bailout ropes, what type and how much training has been done?

I'm glad I'm on your side...oops, actually I meant to say that we're all on the same side and I'm glad that you're, well...um...I'm, ummm, well you know what I mean....

Again, I must ask...what in tarnation is a tanker????

You could make that argument and you would be correct. I can sympathize with why a taxpayer may have a problem with SAFER grants. However, there is one big difference... with a SAFER grant there is accountability. If the federal grant pays for firefighters, the firefighters who are being paid have to show up to work and respond when they are called.

Our policy is that we will respond on mutual aid to cover another department's houses and we will remain there for at least 30 minutes during which time we expect that the department in question will begin a recall of their off duty members. If they begin a recall we will wait around for however long it takes as long as they are making a legitimate effort to get guys in. If the department we are covering refuses to begin a recall of off duty members we will inform them that we will be leaving. This policy is not hard and fast and we are willing to be flexible depending on the situation. What we have tried to get away from is past practice of us sitting in another departments firehouses for indefinite periods of time. In some cases in the past, our companies had spent whole tours covering another departments houses.

I don't understand what you are trying to ask would you please elucidate for me. thanks

Thank you for asking...it's unfair that people who live in communities that are not served by a volunteer department and who pay taxes for a career department have to pay for other communities who are served by a volunteer department. Don't you agree? If not, please explain.

This is bad policy. It is wrong headed and unfair on so many levels, and it won't make any significant improvement in services delivered.

Fortunately no one in either YPD or YFD took the bait and made any inflamatory comments in this thread. That's the last thing we need in these difficult times. If we have any disagreements over anything (which we certainly don't over this apparatus) we certainly won't be hashing them out on here. Good luck with the new rig YPD!

It's actually Collapse of Burning Buildings isn't it? However, Safety and Survival on the Fireground is also excellent.

Well Mike Wilbur, whoever he is, will just have to QTIP...

There is a very interesting feline connection with both of these Elliot St. fires...does anyone else know what I am referring to?

It's funny you mentioned Vinny Dunn. Anyone who has more than a few years in the fire service who hasn't read his books, in particular the first one, shouldn't consider themselves a true professional. I'm not sure if he was the point man on FDNY's study on 4 man vs. 5 man engine companies although I believe he was involved...keep in mind also that when FDNY refers to "4 man" and "5 man" they are not counting the Officer, which is as it should be, so to compare apples to apples, YFD would have "3 men" and many other departments "2 men" or "1 man"...anyway, FDNY did do some good studies and tests on the efficiency of 4 man vs. 5 man engine companies and there were also some other departments and organizations which conducted tests and published valid data on the efficiencies of the various levels of manning on engine companies- I'm sure Bnechis would have all of this info at his fingertips. FDNY though, as far as I know, didn't start insisting on pairing up engine companies to stretch the first line until I believe, approximately the mid 90's as a result of some LODD fires. Vinny Dunn wrote a great article years ago about going around to do in quarters training when he was a BC or DC and he showed up at a busy engine company where on the blackboard in the kitchen prior to his arrival the senior man, a very experienced old timer, had written "it's the first line, stupid"...meaning, "you can talk to us all day about strategy, tactics, truckwork, etc., but as the first line goes, so will the fire go, and maybe you should be emphasizing that more when conducting training. At the time I was reading it I was new on the job and I had already heard from senior guys and officers basically the same thing, but not in those words, and it really stuck after that. Years hence, I can attest to the validity of that statement. I believe most fire departments including my own would improve their operations if more emphasis was placed on the rapid placement and advancement of the first line as well as ensuring it is the proper size (2 1/2 when necessary) as dictated by fire and building conditions.

Thanks. As far as the hosebeds, all I know is some have that big new yellow hose and some have the old white/ gray stuff...as I told you I was never much of an engine guy but i've developed a newfound appreciation for what they do after standing in front of some jobs with my white helmet on and basically praying someone would put some water on the fire fast (which they usually do)....it' funny how i always thought us truck and engine guys put the fires out but my first job as a chief all i could think of was water, water, water...in any event there are a bunch of people on here much more qualified than me to talk about how our engines are set up.

My background is in truck and Rescue work mostly so I'm not an Engine expert but I will now show you all how I am an equal opportunity critic...YFD does not normally team up multiple engine companies to stretch the first line (or any lines). Typically every engine on the first alarm gets their own hydrant and forward stretches in, leaving the officer and nozzleman to stretch the handline which is normally 1 3/4". The hydrant man hooks up, charges the hydrant and follows the line in. If the hydrant is close enough, the driver may get the hydrant himself, allowing an additional man on the stretch. My personal opinion is that for any stretch longer than 3 lengths it would ususlly be better for two engine companies to team up, utilizing one hydrant and using the remaining members to stretch and operate a single hoseline. We rarely do this. Of course, for departments around here, other than FDNY, it is difficult to make hard and fast SOG's regarding such evolutions because manpower is limited and sometimes it is better to inadequately stretch and operate three hoselines than to adequately stretch and operate one hoseline in the initial stages of the fire. In another words, sometimes a little water in three places( fire floor, floor above, exposure line as an example) with a little delay is better than a lot of water in one place with no delay, if that makes any sense. Unfortunately there is a stigma on our department attached to not having a hydrant or not stretching your own line which IMO shouldn't be. I would like to see more first due Engine companies getting on the radio and telling the second due to supply them and using the "hydrant man" on the stretch of the initial hoseline. Then, after supplying first due engine (or as this is being done) second due engine can make the decision whether or not to stretch their own line or help the first due, dependent on the conditions found. I have spoken to many FDNY members over the years who think we are crazy to not team up engine companies and they have a valid point but it is not quite as simple as it may seem to an FDNY member due to our lack of manpower. As a Chief, if I have members searching the fire floor and the floor above, and fire in or about to be in the exposure building(s), I may decide to have all 4 engines on the first alarm stretch their own line in order to cover these areas, even though I realize these lines are woefully undermanned and we are stretching 1 3/4 when 2 1/2 would be preferable...on the other hand, if there is fire confined to an apartment on an upper floor on arrival, the right move may be to team up two engines or possibly even three to get that first line in and oftentimes we don't even consider that option because each engine getting their own hydrant and stretching their own line is so ingrained. Old habits die hard.... I wrote this fast so apologize if it is rambling...this has been one of my many pet peeves about my own department for many years and it is not a black and white issue so YFD guys, please remember.....qtip