JFLYNN

This is a good idea. Video can be a great training tool. A video such as this of a structure prior to FD arrival presents an excellent opportunity to discuss strategy and tactics without second guessing another department. In response to scenario #1, I will offer the following: (I will detail what my actions would be as the first engine officer given the resources available as per the scenario- if this fire occured in my own department we would have more manpower available and thus certain things would be done differently). 1. Give a quick size-up via radio and call for more help. 2. If a hydrant is within 50 feet, order the driver to hook up to it. A competent driver should be able to get water from a hydrant within 50 feet of the rig and charge a handline. This is not ideal of course but we need to work with what we have. If a hydrant is further away than that, radio the second engine that they will need to secure a hydrant and feed us. 3. Leave room for the truck in front as usual but this fire will not require the use of master streams. Neither will we need aerial or tower ladder to reach the roof. 4. Order the other firefighter to stretch a 1 3/4" handline to the front door and wait for me there. 5. Go around back for a quick look. As I am doing that I would question any people in the area as to whether anyone was inside. Don't waste a lot of time doing this but do ask the question. Oftentimes people will remain mute until asked and once asked will say, something like, "yes, there are two children in a back bedroom, etc." If someone says yes, there are people inside, take a quick moment to ask how they know this, how many people,and where they are located. Sometimes bystanders have this information also but do not volunteer it until asked. Of course, use your judgement in deciding how credible any info. you receive might be. During this walk, check for a basement and make sure the fire did not start there. It is very important to not be above the fire unless you know you are. This particular home seems to be built on a slab with no basement but always discipline yourself to check for this. Is this building truss construction? Maybe, but doubtful. Look at the windows. I believe they are an older, aluminum frame type. 6. On the way back to the front give another quick report by radio to the incoming companies as to what you have and what you want from them. Truck should be doing a search. Second engine should be securing a water supply if not already done by your driver, and second engine should also be stretching a backup line. 7. Take the line in the front door and head for the interior door to the garage. You do not need to wait for a FAST team to be assembled as there is a potential life hazard. In any event, another engine and the truck should be there by now or in another minute, as per the scenario information. Be agressive but cautious. Keep in mind that your company is undermanned, that you might only be working off the tank, that the wind is blowing toward you, the fire may be in the attic, etc. All of these things are concerns but no reason not to initiate an interior attack. 8. Put the fire out. At this point I will take some time to explain...several others in this thread have stated that this fire should be an exterior attack, or that 2 1/2" should be stretched. In my opinion,, neither is correct. The amount of fire showing can certainly be knocked down with an adequately supplied 1 3/4" handline. 2 1/2" is too much to handle for a 2 man hose team anyway. Putting some water on this fire is the best thing we can do to save anyone who may still be inside. It appears that the main body of fire is in the garage. It may be in the living area of the house too, and also in the attic. You will find out if fire is in the main part of the house when you enter with the line.Hopefully you have a thermal imager. If so, use it to scan the attic and the rest of the house. Before advancing far, check the upper levels of the room for heat and listen for crackling. Do not pass fire. Get the truck inside with you to complete the search and open the ceilings to check for fire in the attic as soon as possible. Oh, if you encounter any occupants inside, remove them.... ***Some of the things in this post which may raise some disagreement are my decisions to make an interior attack with this much fire showing; to enter without a FAST team assembled; to make the attack potentially on booster tank water; to use a 1 3/4" handline*** I acknowledge in advance that these actions may seem controversial to some in the fire service not because they should be, but simply because I am aware of the way many of us think. OK. I took a few minutes to respond to this type of thread which I usually don't. Can I go back to bashing vollies now????

OK, Ken I will keep this in mind in the future. Thanks!

Hi Ken, Thanks for the reply. I am sorry your feelings have been hurt. You seem like a nice young man who means well. I wish we could agree on these issues but I guess we can't. Be safe out there, ok?

Why do you infer that YFD is not the "real world"?? Why do you assume that I am advocating for WC DES? I am surprised that you are apparently not aware of this but the concept of formal typing of resources, credentialing, and county coordinators coordinating, was not created by me. Since you are a retired supervisor in FDNY EMS I am surprised, first of all, that you can't conduct a civil disagreement without resorting to personal insult, and second of all, that you would propose such a haphazard and ineffective solution to a serious problem when the obvious solution is staring us right in the face and is apparently working just fine in counties throughout the U.S. Professionals (which include both career and volunteer) must discipline themselves to not take these issues personally and to see the big picture. So, I didn't like your idea. Get over it. Admit I am right or make a better argument based on facts, not feelings. To further illustrate my point I will use as an example a major terrorist attack or natural disaster with widespread media coverage. While it may feel good to respond from wherever you are with whatever you got and tell yourself that you are helping, it is recognized by professionals in this business that this type of response normally does more harm than good. The unitiated may ask, "how so? What can it hurt? And if our response saves a life or makes a job easier then it will have served its purpose, no?"...Well, no! Uncoordinated and undisciplined efforts typically do more harm than good. Communities are stripped of protection and the community where the major incident is occuring is overwhelmed by well meaning individuals with mostly the wrong equipment or skill set for what is required, and before long these 'helpers" who have crowded the area and slowed the response of those agencies who are actually requested and needed, are asking the already overwhelmed Incident Commander (or hopefully Incident Management Team) for food, fuel, bathrooms, and shelter. I realize this analogy is not exactly what we are talking about, but it's germane. Just because it feels good does not mean it's effective, and it may even be harmful. Westchester County has people who are supposed to be coordinating all the emergency service assets of this county. I will not criticize them because I all too well realize that not every boss has adequate assets to accomplish everything he is tasked to do, so he or she must prioritize. Maybe that is the case in Westchester. If individuals such as yourself are concerned that this should be given a higher priority, why not use this forum to mobilize people to request / demand that assets be put in place or priorities shifted to accomplish this in a professional manner? And please, lean away from the computer for a moment now before typing, take a deep breath, that's it...now let it out, and yes, qtip...

Recently in another thread someone mentioned "Westchester Battalion Chiefs" which was later pointed out was a misnomer and that the correct title is "Battalion Coordinator"? Wouldn't each of these individuals have an up to date and complete list of the capabilities of his respective Battalion, and in fact, all of Westchester County at least? In Yonkers, our Operations Division maintains an inventory of what is (realistically) available to us in this region. By realistically I mean the equipment actually does exist and is functional, it is able to be brought to the scene in a reasonable time frame, and it is operated by an adequate number of qualified personnel. I think you have identified a critically important issue which has not been addressed properly by those who are responsible for doing so. However, I don't agree with your solution. Anyone can post anything on the internet. The information obtained from this thread may or may not be accurate, and it will almost certainly be incomplete. Why not just write a letter or make a phone call to Westchester County DES asking if this information is readily available and if not, suggest that it be collected and made available? I will state in advance that it was learned the hard way in the days following 9/11/01 that the capabilities of many individuals and agencies can be greatly exaggerated and that these claims must be vetted and credentialed in advance of any event.

All right I will bite...first of all, in the future feel free to refer to me as John, Mr. Flynn, Chief, or even brother (what the heck), but "Flynn" is just rude and disrespectful.... You have made an awful lot of accusations and insults in your rambling, gramatically butchered post, as you have in others. I won't take the bait and will continue to be civil. At one time I did teach many classes as a NYS adjunct instructor at Camp Smith in Peekskill. I enjoyed it and met a lot of great, dedicated people, including many volunteers. I love the fire service and would have continued teaching but for one major issue....many (not all) of the volunteers who showed up for classes I taught (mainly tech rescue) had absolutely no business being there. Their basic skills were virtually non- existent and they were signing up for advanced training. Some were so incredibly out of shape that they could not climb a flight of stairs without becoming winded. However, there was no mechanism for failing anyone. The unwritten rule was that if you showed up and stayed all day (or weekend) you passed. Some may disagree with this and state that instructors did have the ability to fail a student but I doubt anyone will be able to document many cases of this at Camp Smith. The system was very geared toward volunteers witth the overwhelming majority of classes on the weekends which I also thought unfair. Career guys are forced to work many weekends and nights as it is. I began to feel that my serving as an instructor in this system, even though I did enjoy it,was hypocritical, so I stopped. As far as who attends a service for a fallen firefighter, it would be absolutely none of my business to "have a problem with it". Only appropriate family members would be able to speak to that. You mentioned Tony Pagano a couple of times. If you have a problem with him I suggest you take it up with him in whatever way you feel is appropriate. As far as I can tell, he has never been on this forum and he has nothing to do one way or the other with what we are talking about here. It is pathetic to me that, due to the fact that you and others have so weak of an argument in regard to this issue, you have chosen to make attacks against me personally and against the career fire service in general. I have stated before that there are many good, solid people in the volunteer fire service...many serving the community where I and my family live. Over the years, I have had the courage to respectfully and openly disagree or criticize where I see fit. I have never found it necessary to make it personal as you have, and I believe most reasonable individuals, career or volunteer, see that.

If we are doing the same job and performing the same tasks in the same way, why are there different minimum standards? Based on your logic, career minimum standards must be too srtingent, no?

You make this too easy for me Mike. First of all, you make a statement like "well trained"... "250 hours+ at FTC". Really? Hey, well, yeah, I guess "well trained" is a subjective thing, right? So, if you wish to believe that you are well trained, fine. Just don't expect me to agree with you. How often do you think a career and volunteer firefighter are ordered to perform a primary search together? Has this happened to you much? Actually if the scenario you describe really did take place I would have no problem with the municipality indemnifying the volunteer, and I highly doubt any government official would make the decision to indemnify the career and not the volunteer in such an instance. Very bad politics if nothing else. What happens far more often is some 17 or 18 year old volunteer firefighter in his personal vehicle smashes into and kills injures or kills someone. That is a specific example of the liability which I feel strongly no municipality should be compelled to assume. OK, here's another one. This one also far more likely to occur than the one you describe...An 18 year old Chief Officer of a volunteer department completely mismanages a bread and butter fire and a savable victim dies. Why should any municipality be forced to take on that liability? Or, how about this...most of the departments apparatus and members are far away at a parade when a serious or fatal fire occurs? Should the leadership of the department be indemnified for this negligence? What about those times when a volunteer apparatus is loaded with unbelted civilians including children for a holiday or whatever else event and injuries or death result. Should the municipality be forced to indemnify in this case? And you know what? I am quite certaint that I will not convince you or many of the others who have attacked my posts. Your heads will remain firmly stuck in the sand. However, the many reasonable people, career, volunteer and other who read this forum and choose not to post, will mostly see this for what it is when the facts are laid out for them as I and a few others have done here. Thanks again for the opportunity to educate through debate. Forgive me if I choose not to respond further on this topic as it is losing it's luster for me at this point. thatthat,

If you are able to perform the same duties when the bell goes off, that would seem to obviate the need for the higher standards career members are held to wouldn't it? Are you saying that the standards career departments hold ourselves to are unnecessary? How are you and every other volunteer firefighter able to perform the same duties without the same hiring standards and training? What magic is that? Maybe you should apply for FDNY Commissioner or some such...imagine the money NYC will save on recruiting, hiring and training processes....

I actually don't think it is possible to intentionally misunderstand someone. Now, to the rest of your point, how can individuals who are not selected by, trained to, and held to the same standards be expected to perform the same duties all of the time? If this is the case, why the need for career firefighters at all in your department? If, as we have already established, the qualifications of the volunteers in your department are far inferior to the career members, why should the taxpayers take on this risk? Basically anyone can sign up to be a volunteer firefighter. If this is not the case, give me some hard data on how many applicants your or any other volunteer department has turned away in the past. Why are there "interior firefighters"? Are there "exterior firefighters"? What are "junior firefighters"? What are "fire police"? What are "auxiliary firefighters"? What is an "ex-chief"? None of these terms has any relevance in the career fire service. If in the example you mentioned one of the volunteer firefighters who is not interior qualified is ordered by his superior to enter a burning building doesn't that fly in the face of your argument? Taxpayers should not be asked to shoulder the enormous potential liability of those who ask for many perks and priviliges of being a firefighter, yet refuse to be held accountable to any real standard. I hope my many friends in the volunteer fire service will not take this personally because there are lots of good people out there serving their communities to the best of their ability and asking for nothing in return. Unfortunately, though, there are many others who ask for much and give very little in return.

Really I have to ask...what in the world is a "Battalion Chief for Westchester"? I've been hearing that from time to time and it's really confusing me. You see, I've spent almost my entire adult life as a career firefighter in the City of Yonkers which is actually located in Westchester, and through many years of hard work and thousands of hours of studying, I have been fortunate enough to become a Chief Officer. I pay attention to what goes on in the fire service, particularly here in Westchester, and as far as I can tell, there are no "Battalion Chiefs for Westchester". Please correct me if I am wrong.

I actually believe that you believe all of this...

Mike, Thank you for again allowing me to have an opportunity to debunk this common misconception that career and volunteer firefighters "perform exactly the same duties" ... ...I will reiterate what has been discussed on this forum on numerous occasions in the past...Career firefighters are generally hired as the result of a competitive testing process...prior to hiring, medical tests are performed...background investigations are conducted....testing is done for illegal substance use, etc...the overwhelming majority of candidates who apply for a job as a career firefighter are not ever hired...once hired, career firefighters are trained in an academy lasting for at least 3 months, and generally longer....testing is done, and not everyone gets through....career firefighters are required to be in the firehouse during their assigned shifts...promotional testing in the career fire service is based on extremely competitive written examinations....minimum annual training standards are more stringent for career vs. volunteer fire service...I could go on and on.... If a career firefighter screws up, he is putting his livelihood at risk...if a volunteer firefighter screws up, he is putting his hobby at risk...it is acknowledged by almost all fire service organizations that the incidence of arson by firefighter is far higher amongst the volunteer fire service than on the career side... I could go on and on here, but hopefully this will give you the jist of it. I would have no problem with this proposed legislation if the volunteers in my community were to live up to all of the same standards which are required of career firefighters in other communities in New York State... ...and please, we have been down this road before, so I will ask you not to state how YOU have all of these same qualifications, blah, blah...I have stated what are the MINIMUM standards for ALL career firefighters in NYS, so let's compare apples to apples...save the "I do the same exact job as the career guys I just don't get paid" malarkey for your wives or girlfriends unless you can come with some facts...

I stated that the volunteers are "essentially" (for practical purposes) not under the control of local government. Fire Commissioner elections in NYS are generally scheduled on some odd day when there are no other elections and for the most part the only ones voting are friends and family of volunteer Firefighters. If the Fire Commissioner elections were held on a regular election day and if volunteer company's donated their properties to the municipality they serve and disbanded any corporations which they have formed, and if the local municipality were able to actually have some control over who may serve as a volunteer firefighter, and who the leader's of the department are, I would feel differently regarding putting the tax base at risk in regard to taking on this liability.

Thanks for the advice. However, at this time, this is a Connecticut issue. So, in my opinion a forum such as this one is the appropriate place for me to express my opinion and perhaps debate the issue in order to hopefully prevent it from even being considered in NYS. If, at some point in the future this becomes an issue in the State of NY I will certainly heed your advice brother.

I don't understand...I am an active volunteer...no, not for a Fire Department, but for a number of other organizations....anyway, for our various volunteer activities, my fellow volunteers and I do not ask for, not do we receive indemnification from lawsuits...in fact, my fellow volunteers and I do not ask for or receive pensions, tax breaks, medical insurance, free pool or gym memberships, clubhouses to hang out in, or anything else in return because we are..."volunteers" (imagine that!) I am incredibly uncomfortable as a taxpayer taking on the liability for anyone who decides to join the local fire or EMS organization...essentially that is what this legislation is asking taxpayers to do...to be on the hook for the actions or inactions of an organization of individuals who essentially are not under the control of local government and thus, not accountable to the taxpayer who is being asked to take on the liability. I look forward to hearing the opinions of my fellow EMT Bravo members on this topic. qtip

It's emergency services...usually, people do not call us when they're having a great day...

I hope he didn't block the truck...

Well im actually sitting in my office most of the time Mr. Bull. However the brothers on the line are out there doing the right thing everyday. Thanks for your concern.

Same as on your job Mr. Bull. Your relatives are in good hands...

How do you know that I know what you mean? I don't and if I did I wouldn't have asked the question. Please don't accuse me of trying to bait you. I'm concerned that in any community, but in particular where my mother and also my children live and attend school, there may be an issue with EMS responses. From your question, it seems that there may be a problem with "the ambulance getting out" . The way you phrased your question, it seemed to me that you were almost accepting it as a regular occurence in your community that the ambulance "doesn't get out". That is how it <B>seemed</B> to me. Of course, unlike you, I did not assume to know exactly what you meant and I asked a question for clarification. The funny thing is, I actually have a lot of respect for EMS volunteers. At least they have to meet the same training and certification levels as their career counterparts. They do an often thankless, difficult job with very low "hero" and glamour factor as opposed to fire departments. It seems that the problem in your community may be not with those who volunteer to perform EMS services, but rather with those who don't. Rather than blame or criticize those who are actually out there giving of themselves and doing this work, I am happy to support any efforts to, as I mentioned previously, consolidate, regionalize, encourage fire department members to also respond to EMS calls, and / or hire career staff.

One further question / point...in regard to the concern for PD or FD members being liable for causing further injury. isn't moving an unconscios patient part of all basic Firefighter training?

What exactly do you mean by... "when the ambulance doesn't get out for a lift assist" ? To answer your question, as you have already noted, this is handled differently from place to place, however what we should all keep foremost in our minds is that, while these "lift assists" may not seem so glamorous to us as responders (no hero factor here whatsoever), to the patient and their family, this is a true emergency. These patients should not have to wait inordinately long periods of time for adequate help to arrive, and when the help arrives the responders (from whatever agency) should be capable and well trained. If this is not the case in any jurisdiction, immediate steps should be put in place to solve this serious problem. Some suggestions I would suggest be explored are cross training FD/ PD, regionalization or consolidation, and / or hiring career staff.

What does "haughty" mean? Haha just kidding....thanks for qtiping...the world needs more of that.

You were appalled??? Really?? I would suggest you QTIP, as it's just not worth it over an offhand remark that some guy made, and who knows what he really meant? And if you still insist on having hurt feelings, brother, might I suggest you at least be "pissed off" or some other feeling more befitting our fine profession...leave being "appaled" to the country club set... Actually, come to think of it...you didn't tell him or the bar manager you were 'appalled"..did you? If so, maybe that is why they couldn't take you seriously? ...Just sayin'...