JFLYNN

At this point in this discussion I would recommend to any one out there who may be the IC at a building collapse/ trench/ confined space, etc. who does not have legitimate nearby resources to manage the situation to consider where the closest legitimate team is and reach out to their operations officer to determine if this team would consider responding if called and what the approximate response team would be. You will have to determine your own definition of "legitimate". IMO there are quite a few teams around who can handle a basic trench or confined space incident ( a lot more who think they can but actually can't). There are a lot less teams around who can handle a complex trench or confined space incident or a major structural collapse (again there are some who think they can but can't IMO). In the lower half of NYS as far as I know the only fully capable teams would be FDNY assets, SWSOTF, and the Capital Region Team. I'm sure there are those who would disagree though. Next, I would reach out to nearby air (chopper) assets such as NYSP, County PD, Air Guard, etc. to see if they would consider flying in a couple of team leaders / technical assets on short notice. For instance, in the hypothetical example of a major collapse in Dutchess the request for a team from NYC, Southern Westchester, or Albany region could be requested and in short order the IC and / or Operations Officer could be flown in, weather permitting, and on the ground assessing the situation, making recommendations to the on scene responders and communicating to his team responding in by road what they have and what will be needed. It's nothing to be ashamed of to admit you need help and call for it early. For many years in Yonkers, I used to say that if we had a major collapse we should call in FDNY immediately because we couldn't handle it anywhere near as well as they could. However, for us, those days are over and we are now capable.

Rescue Company 3. Bronx, NY.

You are exactly right and also right when you say "if you get lucky"...trying to start at a seam or a pipe opening sometimes works. Also, try to have two or three guys a couple of feet apart from each other work in unison so you can attempt to dislodge a whole sheet and not just make those very frustrating small tears. Also, try to get a large area open before you open up the nozzle- Engine guys have a tendency to squirt water as soon as they see a hint of fire, which creates steam and poor visibility. If you have some visibility from floor to ceiling when you start pulling, try to get as much pulled as you can before you start spraying water because once you can't see what you're doing with these ceilings you'll never get them open. Also, you can try flipping your hook around to start and banging up with the bottom (handle) a bit to see if you can bend (as opposed to tear) the tin to open up a purchase point at the seam, and then flip the hook back around and begin pulling. However, as an IC, once you realize you have in the cockloft in a building with tin ceilings, call for more help (greater alarms)- you're gonna need it. The term "surround and drown" comes to mind... Last, and I'm not actually being a wise a**- one time you really wnat to have your SCBA waist straps done up right is when you're pulling ceilings. Get the weight on your waist and loosen up your shoulder straps a bit so you can work. Funny thing is that although these ceilings cause us so much problems, they were actually designed to prevent fire from entering the cockloft.

Agreed and well said

Excellent point

Ditto Chris

I will post this information tomorrow. It will be taken from our official run numbers. Now, can anyone answer any of the questions we have regarding the "Westchester County Technical Rescue Team"...? BTW, I will be answering your question but it is not actually germane to this discussion. The discussion is really about one multi-jurisdictional team vs. another multi-jurisdictional team. You and some others have chosen to single out Yonkers, not us. This tactic is often used by politicians and children when they are caught doing something wrong...it is referred to commonly as "blame shifting". "subterfuge", "blame the messenger" "answering a question with a question", etc.

Unfortunately and maybe because Bill Fitz and myself have been vocal about this issue, this has sort have become a Yonkers vs. Volunteer Firefighters issue. It is not. As mentioned previously, Mohegan, Somers and Yorktown were all asked to participate in the WSOTF but declined stating basically that the volunteers wanted their "own" team and wanted to be in charge of it. At the recent incident in Eastchester, the WSOTF responded (I wasn't there) which Yonkers was a part of. By all accounts, Eastchester was the IC throughout the incident and all departments, including YFD, played their appropriate role. At the tornado in Hawthorne, I was the on call Deputy Chief in Yonkers and I received the call from our dispatchers that 60 Control was frantically requesting "Yonkers" to respond to a large building collapse with people trapped. I immediately authorized a task force of approximately 25 trained Rescue personnel who arrived in 15-20 minutes from the initial call. We also immediately began recalling off duty personnel to backfill these positions. We were prepared to send more on duty personnel to Hawthorne if necessary. The WSOTF is inclusive of many departments and could have had volunteer representation but the volunteers declined. Yonkers is the largest department and we have worked hard to provide training and resources which are available to us. Many other departments have also shared their training and equipment assets- the system in place works well. What is very, very sad is that the WSOTF could actually expand on our capabilities and provide an even better service to the citizens of Westchester and in fact the entire NY Metro area but for years we have had little or no cooperation from most in the volunteer service and many times intentional political roadblocks have been put in our way by these groups. This probably explains the frustration of my friend Chief Fitz as he has worked as hard as anyone on developing the WSOTF and he has firsthand probably more than anyone the hypocrisy of certain members of the volunteer fire service in regard to this issue. Of course everyone knows I am far more diplomatic and lovable than Chief Fitz- heck, you don't even have to call me Chief or anything...but he's 100% correct in his views on this issue, in my humble opinion. He just needs to maybe QTIP a little bit too.

The whole point here is that the "Westchester Tech Rescue Team" or whatever it's being called is not and most likely never will be viable. Whether or not other resources which actually are viable are available is immaterial. Not to mention that even when other resources are available, which is normally the case, the existence of this "team" will fool unknowing people into believing that they can do what they say they can do. So, they will be called...and they will get there when they get there...and the training levels will be whatever they will be...and the command structure will be what it will be...people will suffer and maybe even die...and when it's all over most everyone involved will convince themselves that they did a great job.

Maybe a "surprise" drill should be conducted some day...Notify Yonkers and the County "team" simultaneously, with no forewarning...have them each respond to any location in Northern Westchester...the first 'team' to arrive with adequate # of trained and equipped personnel and sufficient equipment to perform USAR work according to established National standards "wins"... If Yonkers loses, I will run naked through Getty Square....

Your post makes no sense...look, it's like this...many of us, career or volunteer, get involved in emergency services because we want to help others, challenge ourselves, and get an adrenaline rush. Maybe even because deep down we crave recognition of some sort. It is what it is. That's basic psychology. The problem comes in when people are so intent in fulfilling their own needs- in this case the need to fulfill their desire for an adrenaline rush, or to pursue more interesting training activities and perhaps get involved in more adrenaline rush opportunities, that they convince themselves that they are capable of performing tasks which they clearly, (as a group, not every individual) are not. They then convince others who don't have the ability to truly understand the issue- i.e. politicians and other government leaders. Who suffers? John Q.Public...they don't know any better...you're right, when they see a career FF and a volly FF standing next to one another, they don't know the difference. It is up to those of us who do know the differences and see the glaring inadequicies to speak out. We have no choice but to do so even if it is not popular,,,we were sworn to an oath to protect the public. At one time I was an adjunct NYS State instructor teaching technical rescue. I taught several of the members of this new "team". It was hilarious...they showed up to the classes as much as 6 or 7 years ago now, with their Westchester County Tech Rescue team t-shirts! And the team was officially established when? That should show us where the priorities are. As I have mentioned in a previous post, as much as I loved teaching tech rescue, and even though it was a great learning experience for me also, I just couldn't do it anymore because I felt I was being a hypocrite. Not all, but very many of the volunteer Firefighters who were taking and completing these courses were completely incompetent and dangerous. They had not even mastered basic Firefighting skills. Their heads were in the clouds, they really had no clue. Oftentimes, it was clear that they could not understand or perform the tasks we were attempting to teach them, however it was policy that everyone was pushed through. In all the classes I taught, no one ever failed! New York State had basically set it up so that 99% or more of all students were passed right through. BTW, despite being repeatedly called a volly basher on here, many of the volunteer Firefighters I met while teaching in my opinion were and are really great people and I never disrespected any of them (even the few I didn't really like). I also received nothing but positive evaluations regarding my teaching and the way they were treated. I am convinced that we will never convince many of you of the truth- you have become, in the true sense of the word, deluded about this. However, hopefully the words of those of us who continue to point out, as does Bill Fitz so eloquently (but without my so well known tenderness, ahem, cough, cough)..."the emperor has no clothes!" will reach those of you, career, volunteer, enthusiast, media, wudeva, who are objective and you can join us in our efforts to have ALL fire departments, haz-mat, tech rescue, USAR, etc. teams be judged by clear, measurable and objective standards. ublic deserves. It is immoral to continue to perpetuate the fraud which has beeb perpetuated upon them, to fool them into believing, as you have correctly pointed out that they do believe (albeit falsely) that any two Firefighters standing side by side are the same, and can provide the same service to them in a life or death situation. QTIP, Peace, and Love... This is what the public deserves. (insert above)

The effect that was filmed was to replicate a molotov cocktail being thrown at an unmarked police car and the car "blowing up". After extensive discussion with the film crew, director, and stunt coordinator, we allowed them to do this with a long list of conditions. We had a fully manned Engine Company standing by and also a Fire Prevention Officer overseeing all the preparations as well as the stunt, all paid for by them. The bottle which was thrown contained a non flammable solution with a wick on the end. The car was carefully prepared and inspected by us. Gas tank and all fluids removed, struts and pistons drilled and bled, floormats, seat bottoms and headliner removed, as well as some other precautions which slip my mind right now. A damping material was applied to the roof and hood of the car and then a "pyro" solution was applied (basically Naptha but a bit more stable). Propane bars were attached to the side of the car and supplied by a 40lb. tank to give the effect desired. They were told that the flames should come no higher than 2 1/2 ft. above the roofline and our Fire Prevention Officer had immediate access to the quarter turn shutoff if he deemed it needed to be shut down. Their own personell were responsible for any routine fire extinguishment necessary with CO2 extinguishers. Our guys were hooked up to a hydrant and had a charged 1 3/4" handline ready to go. They were wearing full turnouts and SCBA but I don't know if their waiststraps were fastened and I don't care, qtip.... There were more conditions but that's the basics. Everything was written down in detail and agreed to beforehand. We made them go back to the drawing board 2 or 3 times because we weren't happy with their first couple of plans. They actually were very professional and accomodating though. I wasn't there for the "explosion" which was done sometime after dark on Friday but I assume it went ok because nobody called me to blame me for everything that went wrong.

They filmed all day yesterday and they will be filming again on Tuesday.

In your post, you use words such as "usually", "I'm not aware of", "most of", "I'd be surprised if", "I imagine that"...frankly, this speculation just doesn't cut it for me... there are standards which are measurable...does this team meet them or not?...if I call them what am I going to get and how long after I call?

As a Deputy Chief of the largest Fire Department IN Westchester, and former 9 year Captain of our Rescue Company, no one notified me of this prior to me learning it on here. I will attempt to be totally objective and not make any assumptions. Maybe this is a good thing for the Fire Service in Westchester and those we are sworn to protect... So, what does this mean? What, exactly are the capabilities of this team? If, Heaven forbid, we are in need of outside Tech-Rescue resources in Yonkers (the day will come again sometime unfortunately), what is this team able to provide? What will their response time be? How many personell will respond and what will be their level of training? Are there minimum and maximum age limits? Physical fitness standards? What equipment is available? How long will they be able to sustain operations? What is their Chain of Command? Have they been issued ID cards? Uniforms? These are just a few questions that come to mind....I'm sure others will have many more...

How do these youtube videos that you have posted show why "there are still questions of racism"?

I had the privilege to meet Ron at a barbeque last Summer and we spoke for a while. He was a real gentleman and a pleasure to speak to. My condolences to his family and friends.

Of course this does look ridiculous, but the question to me isn't so much why is the guy on the roof not wearing PPE, but rather why are none of the guys who are wearing PPE on the roof getting it open? If this was my house and the roof wasn't getting opened, I'd do much the same thing, except the hole would be much bigger and higher up, and I would of stole a hook to push the ceilings down. If anyone's feelings got hurt, I'd apologize and suggest that they qtip. I bet a lot of you guys would do the same.

I love you lil' buddy...everything will be ok I promise... I'm glad you let it all out, now qtip...

I'm surprised that the method you describe- "plunging the chain saw in the middle of the plywood from top to bottom severing both 2x4's in half " works for you...we have found that even if you are able to reach the inner 2x4, which you normally aren't, the system will not usually not be defeated this way- the plywood will still be pulled into the building by the bolt system.

Nice pic Bob...reminded me that I forgot to mention that for properly done HUD doors, there will be 3 sets of 2x4's. Also on doors, they screw an additional 2x4 to the threshold butting against the inside of the plywood so the 1/2" plywood can't just be kicked in and crawled under. Also, sometimes they don't put the 2x4's on the outside (you will just see sets of bolt heads) but they are always on the inside. The carriage bolt is normally a 3/8" bolt which is 12" long (coarse thread). ...I thought of a funny joke (at least to me) but too many of you guys just can't seem to qtip and I don't feel like torturing you right now...

Try sites for Department of Housing and Urban Development (H.U.D.), FEMA, or National Fire Academy and look for info. on securing vacant buildings- there are fancy diagrams and instructions out there somewhere...

Bob, this is a good question since we will all be seeing a lot more HUD windows and doors in the next few years as a result of the housing crisis. I could write a lot about this but since you already know what a HUD window is and have read about standard forcible entry I will just tell you what works. There are several methods which work, but the easiest is to use a cutoff saw (K-12) or chain saw to make 3 plunge cuts, forming a triangle, through the 2x4 and plywood, surrounding the head of the bolt. Push the cut triangle (bolt and 2x4) back into the building. This will release the 2X4 which is on the interior holding (pulling) the plywood onto the opening. Start with the bottom bolts so that when you do the top bolts the plywood won't swing down violently. Oftentimes, the plywood is also pinned (screwed or nailed) to the siding so after the carriage bolts and 2x4 system are defeated, the plywood will still need to be pried off. If there are too many nails and /or screws to easily pry off the plywood, cut the window opening out of the plywood after removing the carriage bolt and 2x4 system. Other methods which work but not normally as well are shaving off the heads of the bolts with a metal blade and then popping the bolt through the plywood with the point of a halligan, or using halligan and flathead to cut the head of the bolt off and drive the remaining bolt through the plywood.

Wow, even I don't want to touch a lot of items which were brought up in this thread... However, I would ask, at your job, are you provided with a meal period during which time you are not assigned any duties? Do you normally work 24 hour shifts? Typically, these are the differences between career law enforcement and career firefighters in regard to meals and is why career fd's take apparatus to get a meal. Almost every career fd I have ever heard of does not get guaranteed down time for a meal. Meals are fit in between responses and are often ruined due to the necessity to respond to an alarm and must be replaced. It would be unreasonable to expect firefighters to bring in enough food for 24 hours in addition to enough food to replace what might be ruined as a result of responding to an alarm. Also, most times you see a career fire apparatus at the food store, they are combining the food run with a needed fuel run, or trip to the repair shop, required inspections, training, etc., etc.

Bob, it was obvious that your comments were not aimed at the volunteer fire service and that this other guys comments were aimed at the career fire service. Of course, you didn't take the bait and remained on the high road. Hey guys, in my opinion this whole thread has been basically a bunch of petty nonsense (with a few common sense points made here and there). Why even bother responding to posts like the original post in this thread? It's a losing proposition no matter what you say. Of course, the waist straps are supposed to be worn. We can go on and on about why the waist straps are supposed to be worn and then we who have put an SCBA on and off and on and off many thosuands of times in our careers could list all the reasons that the waist straps might not be buckled at a particular moment in time. Then, others would tell us how technically we're wrong and that they should always be worn and they could list all the reasons for this. And technically they are right. So what? Who cares? Why bother? This time, the guy got his facts right. The waist straps weren't worn and they should have been. Great observation brother, good for you...