JFLYNN

Barry. the Chief also has the option to skip the strong union guy, or the guy who is the wrong color, or someone he has an old grudge against, or someone who is in the way of getting to a politically connected guy...just promote right down the list without skips, it's not perfect but it's the best system I've seen yet...

Wow, according to Police Chief Kapica, Yonkers spends less on fire as compared to police than any municipality in Westchester...who knew?

I don't know you at all, but frankly, I've worked with more than a few older (and younger) guys who spout the same line about old age and cunning and experience making up for them being "a little out of shape"...I'm just not buying...and I taught MANY volunteer firefighters, young and old, who looked and performed like they had never exercised even one time in their lives to the point where they were sweating and out of breath. They got out of breath just putting their turnout gear on- not just a few, lots of them! Look, all fires go out eventually- many of them because they simply ran out of fuel. We don't always do a good job and lots of times it's because a lot of us are not in shape. I wish I had a penny for every time I heard, "we always put the fires out, what's the problem?" "maybe I'm a little out of shape, but I get the job done", "guys who work out get hurt more and don't work as hard at a fire"... ok guys, MAYBE you believe that nonsense, but I never have. Utter hypocrisy is when people try to change the way the job is done to suit their level of fitness. How many times have I heard an out of shape officer or firefighter tell the rest of his crew, "pace yourself guys", what a crock, the answer should be, we are pacing ourselves and pushing ourselves because we want to put this fire out before it puts itself out,why can't you keep up??

A lot of good opinions have been expressed in response to this post, and a few off the wall, even nasty posts, IMO. However, one thing that should be kept in mind is that in NYS, and many other states, civil service law was created as a way to control corruption and unfairness in hiring practices, i.e. Tammany Hall, etc. Civil Service Laws were written to take the politics and politicians completely out of the hiring and promotion process. The system we have today in NYS is definitely not completely fair, and definitely the best and / or most deserving candidates are not hired or promoted, but if the laws are followed as written, generally it is a level playing field. Of course, since NYS and local civil service laws were originally written, there have been many amendments, court judgements, and consent decrees which vary from municipality to municipality. Some of these changes have, (again IMO) resulted in a more fair or just hiring or promotion practice, such as points and considerations for veterans. Some have resulted (IMO) in a less fair hiring practice, such as points and considerations for minorities and women. The idea of the most qualified or deserving candidates being hired is a good one in theory. However, time has shown that anytime you meddle with civil service law, even if your intentions are good, you open the door for unscrupulous individuals to meddle with the whole process for political reasons. The more subjective you make the test, i.e. extending lists in a bad economy, oral interviews, simulations, resumes, etc., the more you open the door for corruption or the good old boy network to rear it's ugly head. As far as age limits, my opinion as a Fire Chief is that there should be a maximum age limit for hiring. What that number should be is open to debate, but it is a young man's job. Veteran's should be given maximum accomodation, IMO- they deserve it, and yes, their military training and experience is almost always an asset to any fire department. If we were ever able to accomplish rigorous ongoing physical fitness standards, which unfortunately isn't happening anytime soon, then maybe we could throw maximum entry and retirement ages out. Without any real ongoing physical fitness standards, we have no choice but to rely on age limits to give us the best chance of having somewhat physically fit people doing this physically demanding, hazardous job. Last, since we're talking about age limits and physical fitness, and maybe this should be the subject of another thread, I believe every firefighter, career or volunteer, proby all the way through chief of department, has an obligation to be in excellent physical shape. I believe this is a HUGE problem in the volunteer fire service, and it is a big problem in the career fire service. How many of you reading this right now are shaped like a pear? At what point does personal responsibility come in?

This seems like a lot of fun! I would love to try it some time. Can any of our Long Island brothers tell us who funds and insures these teams? I'm sure that the monies wouldn't come from tax dollars or 2% monies, or contributions which were solicited for or given to the volunteer fire department and it must be kinda expensive, so how do you guys come up with the money for this. Just curious, thanks!

Your post is actually a great argument FOR this bill, thanks! It's the peoples money! A dollar a day per taxpayer? I'm not sure where you get that or if it's accurate, but I would interpret that to mean a family of 5 on Long Island pays $1.825 annually in fire taxes. Not including if they decide to donate when you send around letters asking for donations or set up outside the supermarket. Then, factor in higher fire insurance rates for a volunteer department. And for that they get what Newsday accurately reported on and what many of us have known for years...a bunch of guys hanging out in palatial firehouses, sometimes almost right across the street from each other, housing hugely expensive top of the line apparatus with every bell and whistle known to man, and probably 3 or 4 times as many of them on the Island as actually needed. Then, add in the Carribean trips for scuba diving training, party (oh, sorry, training buses), etc., etc. No accountability, no standardized training, etc. Oh man I could go on and on...IMO the Long Island Fire Service is the poster child for why this bill is necessary, but why waste my time basically repeating what has already clearly shown to be true by Newsday? But don't worry, if you love your community so much and they love and appreciate you, nothing will change with the passage of this bill. All the bill does is give voters the opportunity to vote on a change. I know some of you personally and the guys I know are all great guys. I'm sure most of the rest of you are too, so I must close with... qtip... and state for the record that this will (ok, probably) be my last post on the Long Island volunteer fire service.

Thanks Cap and Bobby. Coming from you guys, I believe every word and it seems like you guys are doing a great job (I would expect no less of course). I'm glad NYS seems to be moving in the right direction. It's a shame FASNY and certain individual volunteer departments keep standing in the way of rigorous. consistent standards which would apply to all Firefighters, career or volunteer.

Hey Cap, I appreciate your post. I believe you that things with NYS may be slowly moving in the right direction. I'm curious though, you mentioned a FF 1 class in which enrollment dropped from start to finish...were those who didn't finish dropped involuntarily from the class or failed out due to poor performance or did they just quit? How many students who showed up for all the classes did not receive a certificate at the end because they were unable to meet the standard?

Please tell us what specifically has changed. As I mentioned a while back while posting on a different topic, I served as an adjunct NYS Fire Instructor for a few years, teaching primarily tech rescue. Although I enjoyed the opportunity I had to sharpen my own skills and meet new people, I stopped working for the state because most of the volunteers who took these courses had no business being there...they hadn't even mastered basic firefighting skills...many of these guys were Chiefs and Company Officers...IMO the average Proby graduating from a career academy had more firefightin ability than 90% of the volunteers I taught...and there was no mechanism to fail any of these people who showed up for the course...if you showed up and hung around, you passed...truly incredible! I wonder in all the classes given to volunteer firefighters by NYS, what failure rate is? I'll bet it is less than 1/10 of 1%... I gotta say, mostly a bunch of nice personable fellas though, so remember to QTIP please...

Yes, but as career Firefighters we make no bones about the fact that there is a cost for our services. IAFF is an organization which clearly supports bargaining and legislation which will benefit career firefighters. We strive to obtain the best working conditions, pay and benefits possible. Inevitably, if it is shown that our services are not worth the cost, the cost will need to go down or the level of service will need to go up to justify the cost. Examples of this would be Fire Departments expanding into EMS, Haz- Mat, Tech Rescue, etc. beginning in the late 70's as fires went down and pay scales went up. Current examples would be the push for regionalization by many career departments as well as the push for advanced degrees, better physical fitness levels, etc. Therefore, we strive to provide the best service possible and make our arguments to justify the cost. All of this is true with just about anyone in any career, isn't it? The point of the original post in this thread, it seems to me, is that, with FASNY, there is major hypocrisy. The claim is made that volunteer firefighters provide an acceptable (or even excellent) level of service for very little money (or even for free). Oftentimes, the claim is made that volunteer firefighters / fire departments provide the same level of service as career departments. The public is told that volunteer firefighters are serving the community for free and are scared into believing that a career department would be cost prohibitive. The fact is, if regionalization is allowed, in many (not all) places that are served by volunteer departments, it would be cheaper, all things considered, to have a career department and that career department would provide better service by any measurable standard. AND, many of you young guys out there would be able to become career firefighters. This isn't fantasy-look around, regional fire departments with full time career personnel providing "all hazards" response- firefighting, EMS, Haz- Mat, Tech Rescue, etc., plus fire prevention, education and investigation (had to put that in there of course) is reality all over this country and in Europe. In places less densely populated and with a lower call volume than Westchester County! New York State is one of the most backward states in this regard and FASNY is trying to keep it that way. Why don't some of the very many good, intelligent firefighters who are members of FASNY speak up to your leadership and to the politicians to let them know your feelings? You can't all agree with FASNY's stance on this, can you?

Excellent points. You and I know why FASNY would be opposed to this...because in many areas of NYS, once fire districts are able to be abolished and / or consolidated, it will easily be able to be shown that it would be cheaper and much more efficient to create regional career or combination departments. Less expensive and better service to the public. It will no longer just be a hypothetical exercise to add up all the expense of say, 10 small volunteer departments in a region and then compare costs and response times, etc. to a proposed career or combination department which would need far less apparatus, buildings, fuel, training and equipment expense, etc., etc. It will be able to be presented to the public for a vote and actually accomplished! The myth of volunteer departments in NYS providing the same levels of service as a career department for less money will be shattered. Of course, in some areas a volunteer department still is the way to go, but even there it may be far more efficient and less expensive to combine smaller districts into larger districts. End result would be less Chiefs, less Fire Commissioners, and yes, less apparatus, equipment and fire stations. Why not let the public vote on this? If, after hearing arguments from all sides of this issue the public votes to keep their local volunteer FD as is, so be it. Hey guys, I must take great pain here to remember to remind you all to, you guessed it- qtip! Also, since qtip has, in my opinion, proven so valuable and many of you have taken it to heart which I think is a real good thing, in light of recent events on this site, I will now suggest to you all another valuable piece of advice which was once given to me and I now strive to remind myself of daily- never make assumptions. So, please do not assume anything about what I have written other than what I have written- take it at face value, no hidden agendas, no hate, no condescension, no arrogance, etc. There's too much of all that in the world already, and I certainly don't want to add more. But we all have opinions, right? These are just mine. If you are not sure about something I have written here, please ask and I will clarify. Oh, if you noticed some sarcasm, I'll plead guilty to that...all in good fun guys, and to help me make my points, so if you're grinding your teeth right now, clenching your fists, muttering, cursing, holding your breath...just relax, ok, take a deep breath, and when you have a chance, buy a box of qtips and tape one to the corner of your computer sreeen- I guarantee that will help.

Seth and Chris, my compliments on the way you handled this thread. George, thanks for the heartfelt post. And to the many others who expressed concern for Steve and the other members who were involved in or affected by this incident (paid or volunteer of course, but unfortunately it seems I need to make that crystal clear)- thank you!! I often use sarcasm to make a point and I will continue to do so. However, I strive to never let it get personal. Although I did get personal this time with one of the members of this forum, I believe it was warranted in light of his post. Hopefully we have all learned a lesson from this, myself included.

You would have to ask the ER docs who examined them and placed them off duty, I don't believe they read this site. You should keep in mind that the conditions at this fire would not normally be encountered by your department so it might be hard to relate- two attached 80 year old (balloon frame) buildings with heavy fire on two floors and in the cockloft on arrival. Traumatic injury to a firefighter immediatley on arrival removing one and one- half companies from the operation, poor water supply in that area, tightly congested streets, pit bulls running loose in the building, etc. The number of Firefighters available to fight this fire, about 70, was probably less than half of what would be used at a similar fire fought by that great department only a mile to the south. Kee n mind that the firefighters who fought this fire would need to be sure that they were medically and physically able to continue on duty until at least 0800 the following morning, or 1800 the following day, certainly responding to many more alarms and emergencies and possibly respondin to another major fire. If they were too exhausted to do so, or were injured, it would be their obligation to request to be examined by a medical professional who would make the determination whether or not they were able to continue on duty. I'm actually surprised that the number of injuries wasn't higher, especially considering that several of the firefighters at this fire were actually recently demoted from the rank of Lieutenant and everyone there recently worked a day for free. I hope you are able to learn from this.

Maybe employers should be educated about this law and then take this into account when making hiring decisions...I certainly wouldn't want to put my business and my livelihood in jeopardy by hiring employees who could just get up and leave without consequence and if I was aware of this law I just wouldn't hire anyone who I knew was a volunteer fire or ems worker but of course I wouldn't state this as the reason for my hiring decision...I'll be sure to point this potential liability out to my friends who own or manages private businesses...maybe we all should do the same??

which dept. is he with???

hahahahahalolollollol:)

The annex was not FDNY. It was a NYS Fire Academy Annex built by members of FDNY SOC companies, several of whom perished on 9/11/01, along with some members of NYS Fire Academy guys. It was created under the Pataki administration, Pataki being from Peekskill, and closed shortly after Pataki left office. Mostly tech rescue courses were taught there.

Judge not lest ye be judged...we have extremely little info. at this point..."Brother"...

Bill Fitz may be better able to elaborate on this, but many years ago, just after the first WTC bombing in 1993, the Feds decided to institute a "120 Cities" program which would get funding to Fire (and Police) departments of the largest 120 cities, Yonkers being one, for response to terrorist incidents/ major disasters. The philosophy was to concentrate on these 120 cities because the overwhelming majority of the US population lived in or very nearby to one of these cities. Since 911, funding has been opened up to many municipalities outside these 120 cities (in my opinion way, way too many places receive funding now). However, the original philosophy still comes into play with such things as the "Urban Area Initiative", etc., which is to best use Federal resources by concentrating funding on cities/ departments which protect the large % of the population and these departments will of course share these resources with their neighbors in time of need. This is not to be confused with these larger cities having to provide for the basics of fire protection for their smaller neighbors which should ordinarily fall on the shoulders of the taxpayers in each individual municipality. Rather, if the funding for large scale, very infrequent incidents were to be dedicated to the largest departments, there would be a real economy of scale and top notch disaster respinse services could be provided. Unfortunately, post 911, many departments and agencies such as the Westchester Tech Rescue Team have played on the heartstrings and fears of the public and politicians and have asked for and gotten federal funding which has taken away from legitimate assets.

My apologies. My QTIP was an attempt to be preemptive based on my past experience with this site but it was obviously not necessary for me to direct it at you.

Good points Bob...my point in my somewhat sarcastic post above was that you can't really learn how to use airbags from this site. What generally happens with technical rescue stuff in volunteer departments is that someone decides they need a particular piece of equipment and they buy it. They then get "trained" by the manufacturer rep or salesman. Generally this training lasts a day or less. It then goes on the rig. Further training is generally a repetition of the schpeel that the manufacturer rep gave originally only now given by the "instructors" from this department. The generally well intentioned Firefighters in possession of this equipment incorrectly assume that they are proficient in its use. They don't know what they don't know. Technical Rescue is just that- technical. This site is a good source of info for certain things, but if you are looking to learn the basics of tech rescue, you need to get yourself in a good hands on class and in the textbooks (not just websites or magazines). QTIP

The bags in the pic on the bottom appear to be what is technically referred to as "medium pressure air bags"...same principle though as low pressure- you get high lift and the ability for the bags to contour or "pillow" (somewhat) to an uneven surface. Of course, you will normally still need plenty of cribbing as with high pressure low lift bags. They are also used in trench rescue to fill in a belly or a slough -in. For certain incidents, they have advantages over low lift bags. Key thing here is training, training, training, and reading, reading, reading...use of airbags in any department anywhere is a low frequency/ high intensity event...but, if they are carried on a rig that you may be riding, whether career or volunteer, it is your obligation to be fully competent in their use- this means a lot more than being able to hook them up to a bottle and inflate them.

If you are not sure what is meant by "low pressure" air bags, you have no business using any airbags. That is basic information which anyone who operates as a Firefighter in a department that carries low pressure, medium pressure, or high pressure airbags would need to know. QTIP

Prior to the arrival of USAR assets, first responders can and should do the following: 1. Size-up 2. Removal of surface victims 3. Control Utilities 4. Establish secondary collapse zones 5. Control sources of vibration such as trains, venicle traffic, etc. 6. Establish water supply 7. Establish command post 8. Establish staging area(s) ***9. Get everyone off the pile and out of the collapse zone once surface victims have been removed! (Good luch with this!) A good way to do this is to delegate all these people a specific task so they feel like they are accomplishing something- keep giving them jobs, even if not essential to keep them out of trouble 7. If possible identify voids and access points which may be ebtered for search upon arrival of USAR

Which departments are represented in the Westchester pipes George? Is it open to career and volunteer?