JFLYNN

Who deleted my posts asking about whether or not there was a delayed response to this fire?????????

After speaking to a civilian who witnessed this response from the start and in reading the Incident alert it seems like manpower was an issue at this fire. Initial dispatch was at 2200 and someone (the IC?) stated over the air that there was "limited manpower" at 2224??? I would think that 10pm on a Friday night would be one of the most likely times that volunteers would turn out. Is there an issue with having an adequate number of qualified personnel who can respond in a timely manner in this area? I'm particularly concerned because my Mom lives in this area.

I don't think you're trying to start a fight, so no worries..you're response is of course what I expected though.. .in Yonkers, if a civilian stated there was a problem with a response I would investigate by asking someone who was there which is what I have done with my post I appreciate you explaining who those radio designations refer to, however, if 24 minutes into the incident, the department on scene is requesting more personell from another department, and that other department states "limited manpower", wouldn't this mean that there was not adequate personnel on scene and further, no one available to respond in a timely manner? If I am missing something, please let me know. PS Do you know who took the pictures? Was it a member of one of the departments who responded to this fire? Thanks!

To those members of the local media who read this forum...don't you think it would be important to investigate and report whether or not the response to this fire was inadequate and / or delayed? Also, who took these pictures? It wasn't a member of one of the departments who responded to the fire, was it?

I'm more curious as to what the response times are for these agencies??? By "response time" I am referring to the average time it takes from the time of the initial 911 call to arrival of: 1. BLS 2. ALS I am sure that any decent EMS agency would track these numbers closely and this information is readily available, no?

Yes, the example you have stated is correct...further, how about this one?...someone with 20 years in service (all FD) and 4 years in title gets demoted two ranks and another member with 18 years of service in FD but 3 years of service in another municipal department (non-Emergency service) but only a couple of months in the same rank as the aforementioned member does not get demoted at all. And yes, the unions go along with it...

I'm pretty sure Nassau County PD had an addendum to the law put in which makes it time in rank for them.

Chris, in the career Fire Service in New York State, Civil Service Law dictates that demotions which are done as a result of the elimination of a position are done by time in city service, not by time in grade. I think this applies to most Police Departments too but I'm not sure. Theoretically, a Fire Officer who has been in grade for 10 or more years would be demoted before an Officer with one day in grade if the Officer with less time in grade had more time as a municipal employee...wouldn't even have to be time on the Fire Department, it could be Police time,DPW, water department, etc. It's theoretically possible (and I think likely given the current economic conditions) that an Officer could be reduced in rank by two positions). There are a few exceptions- NYC which, as a Class 1 City (City of over 1 Million population) has their own Civil Service Laws, and several municipalities where the unions pushed through NYS legislation which added addendums to the Civil Service Law to have demotions done by time in rank, not time in city service. Some that I am aware of are Niagara Falls, Buffalo, Nassau, Suffolk, Monroe County Sheriff's, and maybe a few others. If the membership of any union truly wished to change this law they should be able to accomplish it fairly easily because it is a no cost item and it wouldn't affect any department or municipality other than the one asking to be made an exception to the law.

One important pointto remember... (and there are many and this discussion can get quite complex- it is not a black and white issue as NIOSH has attempted to make it in this case) ...anyway, I think we in the fire service sometimes need to remember that we take an oath to protect lives AND PROPERTY. Sometimes, the protection of property requires taking a calculated risk. Risk vs. Reward thinking will tell us that, as FJ mentioned so eloquently, every day, all over this country, Firefighters make an interior attack on an "unoccupied" structure and no one gets hurt. How much property would be lost if we went to a strict policy of no offensive attacks on "unoccupied structures"? How many people would be temporarily homeless and in need of shelter? What would be the cost to the economy? How many people would lose possessions with not only monetary value, but irreplaceable mementos, art, heirlooms, etc? The idea of a sliding scale of how much risk you will take based on what there is to save is not new to the Fire Service at all...every Fire Chief knows that the loneliest spot on this earth is that spot that the Fire Chief stands on in front of a burning building, where he alone must make a decsion, in the heat of the moment, usually based on limited information, whether to continue with an offensive attack or withdraw....Firefighters and Company Officers of course, must make the decision whether to intitiate an interior attack in the absence of a Chief Officer, and they, as well as the Chiefs, should, and generally do realize that we will risk less to save property than we will risk to save lives, and that at a certain point, we will risk nothing. However, this decision must be made by well trained, experienced people on a case by case basis and cannot be made by beurocrats in an office, no matter how well intentioned they may be. P.S. I am actually able to write without using run on sentences and I do know what a paragraph is, but, as usual, I'm in a hurry.

I have read the NIOSH alert. NIOSH does valuable work for the fire service and is staffed by dedicated, knowledgeable professionals, however in this case, I agree completely with the response written by Frank Spinelli. I could not have said better myself.

Nice Job! Congratulations! Now tell 'em you need more guys!

No one has suggested making threats. The suggestion has been made to actually refuse to respond...to refuse to participate in a completely broken system. In essence, to continue to respond is to say that the career members are not necessary, that the system will work without them. If you believe that the careeer members are not necessary, then continue to respond, but at least admit that you agree with them being laid off. If you believe that these career members are necessary, then how could anyone continue to serve as a volunteer and help to create the illusion that there is a functional fire department? This would make you even more guilty than the politicians who have made the layoff decision, yes, even more, because, supposedly, as firefighters, career or volunteer, you are more qualified than they are to say what is necessary and what is not in regard to fire protection.

It's called brotherhood...display to the public and politicians that you will stand together. Give them plenty of notice and articulate that the career members are necessary, not optional. Make it clear to the public that this is a CHOICE that is being made by the politicians and that a consequence of the choice to lay off career firefighters will be that the volunteer firefighters will no longer be able to respond. Explain how undermanned Beacon already is, and that the volunteers have a moral obligation to not participate in such a dysfunctional system and perpetuate the myth that adequate fire protection actually exists (as espoused already by several members in this very thread). The politicians in turn will test your resolve. I guarantee you that if the volunteers stay united, this "test" will pass quickly and the career members will either not be laid off, or will be rehired quickly. The elected leaders will simply have no choice...if NO volunteers respond when the bell hits, they will simply have to acquiese to your demands, won't they? If you fail this "test", you will be owned by the politicians and will be reduced to completely useless and innefective ranting on sites such as this.

It seems like a lot of volunteers have been making posts which are supportive of the career staff in Beacon...that's great! Have the Volunteers considered making a public statement that thet will all refuse to respond if any career staff are laid off?

Why did you decide to bring this up? Apparently you have the problem. Since you decided to bring this issue up AGAIN, I must state that I disagree completely with the cartoon...the "wrench in the machine" is the fact that not only do the major volunteer fire service organizations refuse to allow basic minimum standards to be set for their members, further they continue to fight against legislation and funding which would benefit career firefighters and fire departments and the populace they protect. There is a HUGE difference between career and volunteer departments. This is not to say that volunteer firefighters and fire departments are not necessary in certain areas, they are, and many, if not most, volunteer firefighters are decent, honorable, community minded people. However, the standard is not the same, period, and it would be dangerous and irresponsible for any firefighter, career OR volunteer to pretend that it is for political correctness sake. Maybe it is YOUR ego that it is getting in the way? Why can't you just admit to the very many differences between minimum stabdards for career and volunteer firefighters and stop pretending to be something that you are not for the sake of your own false pride and ego? Do your thing in your community and leave us alone please and we will do the same.

yes and yes

Spyder, DIDN'T WE TEACH YOU ANYTHING??? You're supposed to get there before the fire is out...say hi to your Dad!

In reading all the responses to this post so far, it just seems to me like more evidence that Westchester County Fire Services are critically in need of consolidation and regionalization...too many toys of too many different types and not enough people who are consistently ready and able to play with them in a timely fashion when necessary.

I live in a community served by a volunteer department. As a taxpayer, I am totally against ANY incentives. I don't believe that they are effective in improving fire protection at all. However, if the incentives offered were great enough, maybe I would join my local department, (really!), however, I won't be a hypocrite and call myself a "volunteer", I will explain to people that it is my part time job...

Actually, my role model handed me a qtip and told me, "don't take this personal but you're not a good enough basketball player to make the NBA, you can't sing or play an instrument so forget about the rock star thing, you're a little too wild to make it in the corporate world, so you better take the Fire Department test, and if you don't do well on that you'll just have to be a cop..."

Very touching. I loved it. Thanks for sharing.

The recent post about NIMS compliance which referred to the tragic LOD's in Manlius, NY, has spurred me to post this topic concerning one of the most cardinal rules of Firefighting which is often ignored with tragic consequences: If You Can't See Where You Are About To Place Your Foot....... CRAWL!! Inside a fire building, on the roof, even in the street, crawl when you can't see your feet, regardless of the heat conditions. If you are crawling, you will move more quickly and safely because you won't have to worry about stepping into a hole or shaft, or tripping over unseen obstacles. Many Firefighters are seriously injured and killed every year because of trips or falls that would not have happened if they were crawling instead of walking. P.S. What you are looking for (fire victims) are more easily found (bumped into) when crawling, and what is trying to kill you (heat, smoke, flashover) is more easily avoided when crawling. P.S.S. Don't forget to continually monitor conditions at the ceiling for signs of flashover. * Of course, the above information will not receive nearly as much attention as posts on the latest parade or new shiny apparatus, but hopefully it will make a positive difference for some of you. Qtip...

Sometimes I just read these posts and look at my computer screen and scratch my head....I'm reminded of the old expression, "you can lead a horse to water"...you guys know the rest....or the other expression, "a little knowledge is a dangerous thing"...or, as an old senior man who I learned a lot from used to say "they don't get it and they never will"...it's ironic that oftentimes the very people who would most benefit by opening their minds and listening, are in too much of a hurry as soon as they hear something to give you the old "ya, but..." so, this post is not meant for those guys referenced above, (because they'll never get it) but for the rest of you, please refer to my original post...unfortunately, every year, firefighters are injured and killed because they put their foot somewhere they shouldn't have and it is my humble opinion based on observation, study, and experience, that these bad things would not happen nearly so much if we would all just crawl when we can't see our feet. Plus, as I and others have mentioned, there are many other advantages of getting into the HABIT of crawling. We're all very impressed with some of you guys and your knowledge about European Firefighting and Building construction, NIST studies, venting the roof, venting windows (BTW, who said "it's good to take all the windows", and, oh my gosh, we're not supposed to wait anymore until the vibralert goes off to begin exiting the structure??), PPE, blahblablahblahblah ad nauseum, these are all great things to talk about, read about, etc. (I and others here have spent many years and thousands of hours doing so). However, that was not the intention of the original post. Hopefully, no one reading this now will have this whole string of posts flash before their eyes someday as they get that "sinking" feeling (literally) because they just put their foot somewhere they shouldn't have.

HAHA, I don't know you but I feel like I do...I love your posts and I get it...I grew up in a home w/ a Dad who was a Firefighter...listening to his and his friends war stories and listening to the scanner and buffing jobs in Yonkers and New York in the 70's, then got hired as a young guy in the late 80's, and continued to buff for many years, while bartending on the side in a Fireman's bar and listening to old timer's war stories and basically interrogating any guy on the job who came in and had been to a fire recently...I wanted to know all the details...meanwhile I studied my a** off and went to lots of classes and schools, and I learned some good stuff from the studying and schooling, but most of the really useful stuff regarding actual structural firefighting, and in particular truck and rescue work, I learned from doing, and from and listening to those who had actually done it, a lot... Problem is, what's the definition of "a lot"? I guess you'll all have to decide that for yourselves...

Thanks Chris. To reiterate on stairs...going down backwards has many advantages in addition to those you have stated...just think about it for a minute or try it...you can not possibly get a lower profile (under the heat and smoke) or a more stable position than going backwards, plus, in the case of basement stairs, they are almost always very narrow and to turn around while on the stairs and get out fast, especially with the usual case of too many firefighters crowding the staircase (another issue alltogether), is very difficult...if you're facing up already and don't have to worry about turning around in such a narrow space you will be able to descend much more quickly- and descending quickly is another important tactic for basement or below grade fires, or the rare case when you are above the fire and need to get out down the interior stair...get your self together at the top of the stair, get down quickly and take your beating on the way down, and get off the stair and off to the side...for those who haven't done this you will be amazed at how much cooler it usually is once you get out of the "chimney"