JFLYNN

Are there any career guys on here who would be interested in running? Or, does anyone know of someone who is not a volunteer who lives in the area who we might convince to run? Maybe a lot of us who care about this issue could get behind such an individual and support them? It seems like the situation in Mohegan is the classic case of insiders running a Fire District for their own benefit and disregarding what is best for the public. I am willng to write letters, go to meetings and demonstations, whatever. I think a win on this issue in Mohegan would be a win for the fire service as a whole and the public we are sworn to protect. And. BTW, it doesn't have to be a "bloody battle"...hopefully, if given the proper information, some of the volunteers who serve as Fire Commissioners, or their supporters, will see the light and make some immediate, concrete moves to both add more career staff as well as give the career staff the authority and respect they need to properly serve the public.

Great post! Thanks for the info. To the Mohegan career guys- hang in there! For clarification, noone is criticizing the efforts or tactics of anyone, career or volunteer who operated at this or mother recent fires (we're not complimenting them either, we just don't have enough info to speak on that issue one way or another and that is not the real issue anyway). The real issue is the chronically severe lack of an adequate number of qualified firefighters who are able to respond in a timely manner. Where is the media on this?? I know many local reporters read this site. Where is the Mohegan Union? Again, I'm not being critical of the Mohegan Union- I just haven't heard anything publicly from you guys. Get the word out to the public and repeat is much as possible. Best case someone in charge will show true leadership and fix things before a real tragedy occurs. Worst case those in charge will be forced to fix things after a real tragedy occurs. However, if you don't go on the record publicly and repeatedly about the problems now, when a real tragedy occurs, the same old "we did the best we could" argument will be made, and nothing will change.

A fire Department is an ESSENTIAL service. It is not a luxury. If volunteers are able to get the job done for less money than it would cost to employ career Firefighters that is great for everone! However, I believe that we have already established that the situation in Mohegan and in many parts of the lower Hudson Valley is broken. This ESSENTIAL service is not being provided in an adequate or timely manner, and it is not being provided for less money even! If any other ESSENTIAL service is not being provided to the citizenry in an adequate or timely manner, adjustments are made (this can be raising taxes, consolidation, regionalization, cutting in other areas and shifting financial resources to the area of need, etc.). In fact, this is done all the time for even non-essential services. The problem with many (not all) volunteer Fire Departments in this area is that they perpetuate an illusion that the public is being protected in an adequate and timely manner and this impedes the efforts of those who strive to truly improve the delivery of efficient fire, rescue, and emergency medical services. This situation in Mohegan is a classic example. For the most part, the public believes what one of the initial posters on this thread purports...this was a "good stop", they "did the best they could", and sometimes bad things happen. In reality, the situation is far different as stated by bigyellowtaxi in a recent post...that is the true story and that kind of information needs to be continually gotten out to the public and members of the fire service in order for us to effect real change. Many of you on here can help in these efforts if you so choose. Remember the old expression which I will tone down a bit as appropriate for this situation..."bad things happen when good men do nothing"...

I didn't say it wasn't a good stop...that was one of the troublemakers on here ( I know who he is and I can confirm that he is always up to no good) ...I'm nice remember?? I have no idea what actually happened at the fire. What members are questioning on here is a seemingly repetitive and systemic problem of being unable to provide an adequate and timely response of qualified firefighting personnel. If it takes numerous departments to deal with even a private dwelling fire every time, why don't those departments just combine?

You're telling us that we should expect the departments involved to maybe "have a lil bit of a hard time getting the engine out" and that we should "try to factor in how many of these people are working, or dedicated to some other issue in their lives" and that we should "give them a breaK"???? This was a private dwelling fire. right? So, if we should be understanding of an initial lack of manpower arriving in a timely manner at this fire, I guess we are going to need to be extremely understanding when there is a public assembly, multiple dwelling, or God forbid, a school fire in this area at 2:30 in the afternoon, and the people potentially trapped inside these aforementioned burning buildings and in need of rescue will need to be particularly understanding people as well I guess... Why not just take an opportunity such as this to admit that there is a problem and try to fix it? Consolidation, regionalization, perhaps strategic use of career staffing...or, just cross your fingers and hope it all works out, and hope that everyone just "understands"...

105 views so far...I bet I can double that at least...

Bob, nice topic! Allright, I'll contribute...I wonder if I can manage to not get acccused of being a big, bad, bully??? First of all, my compliments to you all. A lot of great tips on this thread. In no particular order: When you can't see where you are about to put your foot due to somke or darkness you should be, you guessed it....CRAWLING...or, ok do the duckwalk if you're on the nob (nozzle)...I'm aware of two incidents in my own department during the last month where guys fell through a floor or down stairs and were injured. I have no idea if they were crawling and I don't know for sure if it would have made a difference but I'd be willing to make a bet (see? now I've even most likely pissed off guys on my own job...I don't just pick on defenseless women, children, sneior citizens, etc.) When raising a ground ladder to the roof, just raise (extend) it all the way every time- saves time looking up and trying to figure whether or not you've raised it enough to have 3 or 4 rungs above the roof line, and then possibly having to raise it all over again if you come up short once you drop it onto the roof...who cares if you ahve 5 or 6 rungs above the roof instead of 3 or 4? Before entering a room for a search in low or "zero" visibility, put your head right on the floor and turn your head sideways to get as low as possible...in pretty much every room, even those which seem to have "zero" visibility, there will be a couple of inches at least at the bottom of the room of fresh air and thus visibility...if you take the time to do this, you may be able to make out furniture, doorways, drop down fire, or even victims, giving you valuable clues to aid your search, or even to help you make the decision whether to begin a left or right handed seacrh. Going above the fire in an interior stairwell? Keep your shoulder up against the outside wall. This will give you protection in the event that heat, smoke or fire vents up the stairs from below and will also minimize the chance of being struck by falling skylight glass in the event it is being vented as you ascend the stairs. During overhaul when pulling walls or ceilings with a charged handline present, try to open up as much as possible before opening the nozzle. Once you start spraying water, we have to deal with all that steam which makes it not only more uncomfortable but much more difficult to see. Don't crown the nozzleman! Give him and his Officer and/ or nozzleman room to work. If the line isn't advancing fast enough for you, go back down the line and help to dekink it and move it around corners as necessary. When forcing a bulkhead door, pop off the top hinge so it won't close inadvertantly. Don't chock it. Take the hinge so it definitely will not close. It really sucks for the guys below to be operating on the firefloor or floors above with decent stairwell ventilation and then to have it go to s$#t because someone bumped into the already opened bulkhead door and knocked the chock out. Please, please, please, DO NOT vent windows from the outside unless you have coordinated this action with an engine company which is advancing toward this window and there are no strong winds blowing in the direction of the window, or if you plan on entering the window for a search. On the fireground, when it's really cold out, please don't say, "I hate the cold!" Same goes for the "man it's hot!" comments in the summer...we all know this already and you're just annoying us. Did I mention, CRAWL? And by far, most importantly, please QTIP.

OK, I know the IA times aren't always exact however I have a question regarding the Banksville Fire based on what was reported in the IA. 1615 initial alarm? 1623 MA Tanker requested? 1627 Banksville Tanker responding? It would appear from reading this that the first due tanker didn't get out of the barn until 12 minutes after the alarm came in...since I don't know squat about this area or tankers maybe someone can enlighten me...how many Firefighters are necessary to get the tanker on the road, isn't it only one? I assume this area has no hydrants? If the IA times are correct, why did it take so long to get the tanker responding, especially on a Saturday afternoon when I would assume would be the most ideal time to hope for an adequate response from volunteer Firefighters? PS, How far in miles is the closest firehouse from this home? Thanks!

If two people disagree on something and you don't care who's right, wouldn't that infer that you don't care about the issue at all? You mention that you are not happy certain things becoming "two or three page threads on here"...if something becomes a two or three page thread, wouldn't that infer that it is a topic of interest to at least several people? Please show me where in my comments i "opined on what should have been done"?? Who made an "endless barrage of criticism over every single incident"?? I have questioned response times a few times in structure fire IA's and I have done so for a reason. To establish whether or not there is a real systemic problem, we need to investigate whether or not there is a pattern, and not just one or two isolated incidents. I'll tell you what...as soon as I feel comfortable that the fire service in Westchester County on a whole recogjnizes and begins to deal with this serious problem in a healthy way, I'll stop occassionally asking questions about response times and manning levels at certain incidents. I have not opined on much on here, I ask questions or state facts usually. I will opine, however, that you are easily upset over the issue because it hits close to home and shines a light on something that makes you very uncomfortable. You are blaming the messenger and your desire to brush this problem under the rug puts you in a small minority on this site apparently (and thankfully).

As long as no one criticizes me or my posts, I'm fine with anything anyone has to say...

"...and who cares?..." Lots of us do, apparently. In the fire service response times are crucial. That is why they are tracked and recorded. It's simply not good enough to say, "we do the best we can", or "these times aren't exact", "what's the big deal?", etc. It is a big deal. SECONDS COUNT. If we can improve response times, we will save lives and property. What is more important than that, someone's feelings?? QTIP.

Thanks Mike. I was pretty confident that the times were exact but I was waiting for you to confirm it. So....could someone please explain why the Banksville tanker was not enroute for a Banksville structure fire until 12 minutes after the initial alarm? None of this makes sense to me. Is this the norm???

While standing by outside a school as other members of his company investigated an activated alarm inside... "313 to Yonkers you better send a lot of cops here I think there's a riot goin' on" "10-4, 313, about how many students are involved?" "How many does the school hold Yonkers?" "OK, 313, we get it, Police are on the way"

If the information provided in the IA is accurate, or even close to accurate, that situation is a darn shame and is just one more in a long line of fires and emergencies in Westchester County recently which beg the cause of regionalization and consolidation.

That depends...and that's the problem...

Chris, great post...it's funny, after I made my earlier post I was out to dinner and me, being the buff that I am, couldn't stop thinking about this whole discussion. I also thought about the vacant building analogy and I was thinking too that most of us on this forum really can't make a judgement at all about how much risk was actually involved in this incident as, obviously, most of us have no real training or experience is helicopter or swiftwater ops. Much like outside observers may feel that it doesn't make any sense for us to make agressive interior attacks at vacant building fires because they don't have the same training or experience levels as we do, maybe we would look at this swiftwater operation in LA and think that it was actually riskier than it really was because we are not looking at it through the eyes of people highly experienced in this area. I was also thinking that maybe I was overly simplistic thinking in my first post. We actually do take calculated risks to save PROPERTY all the time, even when we know there is no life in danger. The old analogy, risk a little to save a little, risk a lot to save a lot, risk nothing to save nothing...So, maybe it would be rational to take a calculated risk to save an animal. As to the vacant buiding analogy, an area where I do have some training and experience...we don't make interior attacks in vacant buildings just because there COULD be someone in the building. Oftentimes, we complete our primary search and we continue to conduct interior operations, sometimes aggressive interior operations. The reasons we would do this are several...many times, vacant buildings are exposing nearby occupied buildings and the best way to protect the exposures is to agressively extinguish the fire in the vacant. Or, the vacant may still have some value and we do take some risks to save property. Last, it is usually a lot quicker to push in and put the fire out then to stand around all night and "surround and drown", which ties up fire department resources causing longer response times to other incidents. Of course, if the volume of fire or the condition of the building dictates an exterior attack / defensive operation, that is what we do, regardless.

This would be a tough call for an IC. We all, or most of us, love animals. Your people are chomping (no pun intended) at the bit to help the dog and use their training and equipment. If you pull it off, it is good PR. If you decide not to go for it, your own people as well as the public are probably all pretty pissed off at you. I will not Monday morning quarterback this incident because I wasn't there and I don't have all the details. However, if I were the IC at a similar incident, I would not place my members at any significant risk to save an animal. Anyone who may at some point in their career be faced with a similar go or no go decision would be well advised to think now about what decision they might make, and to realize the pressure that will be put on you if you decide to stand by and do nothing. Sometimes, though, it takes the most courage to make the decision that you will do nothing. I'd rather stand by 1,000 times and watch animals die, than have to live with the fact that someone under my command was killed or suffered a serious injury attempting to save a non-human life.

I noticed in reading the IA on the Croton Falls Fire that it was dispatched at 1605 and at 1617 the Somers Ladder was "waiting for more manpower"...(12 minutes after the initial response) What does this mean exactly? Is this ladder part of the initial assignment? Were there other ladder companies responding? How long after 1617 did this ladder company actually respond and with how many personnel? This was on a weekend afternoon. I'm surprised that there would be any problem with manpower. Is there an issue with having an adequate number of responders in this area too?

I'm sorry you feel this way but glad most others do not. Yes, there is an agenda behind the question. I will again beat the drum here...I, and many others, believe that there is a serious problem in most parts of Westchester County with inadequate Fire and EMS coverage. For the most part, the public has no idea of this problem. I believe the problems can be solved through consolidation and regionalization. However, to solve this problem, we first need to educate both the public and many members of the Fire Service here in Westchester that there is in fact a serious problem. Questioning response times and manpower levels is part of this process. It is not personal, it is business. I do not "get my jollies from this", nor do I feel that I or my own department is perfect. I do realize that there are many (not most) who read this forum who are just chomping at the bit for an opportunity to criticize me personally or my department. Eventually you will have your opportunity I am sure. We all make mistakes and we all have areas in which we can improve. SO, go for it when your opportunity arises...I won't cry, I promise...

Bull (great name by the way), No feathers ruffled here but thanks for your concern. Your original post I thought was rather trite and simplistic thinking. And, oh yeah, maybe disrespectful. There are approximately 40,000 Cops in NYC AND 11,000 Firefighters, right? You, a junior Firefighter, find it fitting to continually ctiticize experienced, senior Fire Service Professionals who are forced to manage with much less. You make assumptions about what our mindset is. Your statement would be similar to me saying, why in the heck doesn't FDNY have their own helicopter??? How in the world are the Police in NYC in charge of Haz Mat and not the Fire Department????? Why are Cops crawling all over every trench rescue and building collapse in NYC and basically conducting separate operations from Fire Department ops in the same space? This must be the FDNY Chiefs fault, right?? Of course it's not the FDNY Chiefs fault little brother...The FDNY Chiefs have complained about these things for years but have not have had the support of the politicians so it is what is is. In Westchester we have limited resources. Particularly in Yonkers, with the close proximity to NYC, for low frequency- high intensity events such as you have mentioned above, the logical choice is to call on your brothers who we are lucky to have available to us with their expertise and equipment. It would be ideal if we had all these resources available to us within our own departments, but we don't, which is why many of us have been working hard at consolidation / regionalization plans so we won't be FORCED to call on our wonderful brothers to the South. Fortunately, though, for the most part, when we have had to call on NYC, the attitude we have experienced has been far more gracious and professional than the attitude you have repeatedly comported yourself with on this forum.

Hey Bull, It is very comforting knowing that you and your brothers are right there ready, willing and able to rise to the occasion and save the day for us...thanks for explaining this complex situation so succinctly...the depth of your understanding of the dynamics of both NYC and Westchester County emergency services is quite evident in your post

Chris, you make some excellent points here. I have nothing to do with water ops in Yonkers but from where I sit we are as guilty as anyone...everyone has to have their own boat and be in charge...if all of the police-fire agencies on both sides of the river got together and combined resources it seems to me that we could provide 24/7, 365 coverage with good response times, and trained personnel for less $ than everyone is spending now, and we wouldn't even have to pull over every poor slob with a jet ski to justify our existence...I was working the day the cessna went down off the Yonkers shore in November or whenever that was and it really sucked watching those two guys doing the backstroke in the middle of the river through binoculars until NYPD and the Coast Guard showed up and saved the day. In my mind, this is definiely an area ripe for consolidation and regionalization, including Police and Fire, and perhaps even career and volunteer, as long as all the parties could agree to live up to the same training, medical, and physical fitness standards.

HAHA

I hope you weren't talking about me with that! I know who you are Frank! BTW, "too", not "to"

Thanks Barry. I knew you would bail me out with the details. I know you have more too...stop holding out on us