JFLYNN

We utilized 3 spare engines and 1 spare ladder which gave us 3 and 2 at which point we released the mutual aid. We didn't wind up manning the other spare ladder.

Yes that is all correct Chris. We stop doing First Responder EMS runs when a certain # of apparatus are at a job or on other alarms for an extended period. I'm actually drawing a blank right now on how many apparatus out will stop the first responder runs, I think it is eight? In any event we were not responding to EMS runs last night for an extended period of time.

Thanks Chris. Exellent points. Just for clarification our additional alarms are normally 2 Engines and 1 Truck so that would be only 12 people total (all companies are staffed by 1 Officer and 3 Firefighters). The remaining Battalion Chief with his Aide (there are two on duty at all times) and the on call Deputy (no aide) come with the second alarm so the second alarm would actually have 15 members and all additional alarms would have 12 members. We call mutual aide once we go below 3 Engines and 2 Ladders in the City and we do try to get them back to their municipality as soon as possible by freeing up in service companies as well as recalling off duty members to man spare apparatus which are normally equipped and ready to go. We also call in an off duty Battalion Chief with Aide to man a spare Battalion car and cover the city once we go to a third alarm. One thing we are lacking which we have been fighting for years for is 24 / 7 Fire Department supervision of the civilain Fire Dispatchers which would really help in situations like last night. There was a lot of scrambling behind the scenes to keep the city adequately covered, as well as get our off duty members in and out the door on the spares, send the mutual aid back, rotate fresh crews to the fire scene, transport injured or exhausted members etc. while at the same time maintaining accountability of everyone and everything....thanks to the mutual aid departments who came in as well as cooperation from union leaders, off duty members, etc. this was all handled pretty well last night. Although you point out the benefits of certain aspects of our manning and organization, I would state that we are actually at a bare minimum right now and I couldn't imagine what would happen if we were forced to operate with less companies, less manning on the companies, or less staffing on the administrative side.

Not enough

Our paychecks are funded through taxation. So, therefore, are you saying that we should not be able to spend any of our salaries on alcohol? This is monies which the BFD union feels were owed to them contractually to be spent as they see fit for funeral expenses. Alcohol being served at a funeral reception is a normal, legitimate expense. There were many thousands of mourners in Buffalo for two funerals and consuming alcohol off duty at a funeral is a perfectly legal, acceptable thing to do. Considering the numbers of attendees I don't think either $7,600, as the union claims, or $11,000, as the City claims, is a lot of money to spend on booze. It was not a frat party, however, this whole matter is obviously a thinly veiled attempt for the Buffalo City Administration to make it look like just that in order to discredit the union. Some on this site are attempting to take that ball and run with it for their own reasons...

I've always wondered...when I see the apparatus parked out in front of the food store where I live and the volunteer firefighters are collecting donations and selling raffles, does any of that money go toward parties or functions / conventions where alcohol is served? What about the letter I receive in the mail asking for donations? Is any of that money used to purchase alcohol? What about the 2% monies? Is any of that money used to purchase alcohol? Keep in mind now, that if any of that money was used to purchase alcohol I wouldn't necessarily have a problem with it so long as the people who contributed the money were aware of where it was going and they are not led to believe, as most people are, that is going toward firefighting equipment. At least in Buffalo they were up front about it. Serving and consuming alcohol is perfectly legal, as long as those doing so are of age and do not work or drive while impaired. Most of us would choose to serve alcohol to those people who come to a get together after a funeral for one of our family members. That is what the Buffalo Fire Department did- they offered food and drink to those who came to mourn their brothers. They have apparently interpreted that expense to be part of what should be covered as funeral expenses as per their contract. They obviously feel that they have nothing to be ashamed of and neither do I.

We have previously established the fact that many departments in the area have a real tough time with having an adequate number of trained firefighters able to cover incidents in their jurisdiction. In light of this, I would be interested to know with as much specificity as possible, what type of preplans various departments have made to ensure that when members and apparatus participate in a parade in another jurisdiction, there will be no diminution in fire protection during the time these members and apparatus are not available????

If you like I may be willing to consider being a judge. I have a very sweet disposition.

That continues to be suggested but we realize that in actuality, "this" helps more at this point...people need to be educated before they can organize properly and clamor for change which is what is happening right here on this forum, isn't that great? I myself am learning more and more about this issue through this forum every day. I am learning how truly serious it is and what an undercurrent of discontent there is out there in the volunteer community from those who wish to truly serve the public they are sworn to protect. So, I predict if we keep discussing this issue and all of its ramifications on this forum, we will eventually see the issue spoken about at village/town board meetings, as well as at Fire District meetings, County Board meetings, etc., as well as the media getting involved and getting the information out to the general public. Then cange will happen. I think many of the people who keep insisting that this is not the correct place to be discussing this issue realize that as well. They would rather not have reality imposed on their fantasy but the ball is now rolling and it will be hard to stop.

Thank you for not taking this personally and engaging in honest debate. First, I would like to ask you not to make this thread out as some sort of battle or comparison between career (what you refer to as "paid") and volunteer firefighters / fire departments. It was not intended as such. To elaborate a bit on my problem with you referring to career firefighters as "paid", I would remind you that it is volunteers who often insist on being referred to as professional and I have always understood the point. You most certainly can be professional regardless of whether or not you are a career member. By the same token, you can be unprofessional even if you are doing something as your career. However, career firefighters are not the only firefighters who are paid as we have discussed in the past...many volunteer firefighters accept pay in the way of pensions, tax breaks and many other financial and other benefits. Again, I appreciate you providing specific information in regard to how the parade issue affestc your department and the public you are sworn to protect and I will take you at your word. However, from what I can tell, this is still a very serious issue with many, if not most, volunteer departments who choose to participate in parades, as attested to by many volunteer firefighters right here on this website. Also, in just now rereading your post as welll as KCRD's, I am reminded of the importance of there being an adequate response of trained firefighters in the initial stages of a fire. Counting the number of responders who actually showed up at some point during a fire is not really an accurate indicator of the effectiveness of the response. You mentioned several incidents wherein you gave numbers of Firefighters who responded...do you have numbers for the actual number of fully qualified interior firefighters who showed up in, say, the first eight minutes after the original 911 call was made? I really do appreciate your post. It was a breath of fresh air. However, sometimes things arre really not as they seem. I really do believe that you truly believe that "what we lack in paid (career) performance is more often than not made up for in brute size", I'm just not convinced.

As the "OP" (took me a minute to figure out what that meant) I strongly believe that the thread should remain open at this time. The "OP" was only made 4 days ago. I would bet that a lot of members have not yet had an opportunity to read it. Especially in light of the Holiday week. Many of our members will most likely be shocked to learn of some of the aspects of this whole issue and they should be given the opportunity to do so. I also believe that several members would like to see this thread go away because the truth hurts and they don't want this information out there. Further, I think we will see positive change come out of this thread. Some departments will be proactive and others will be reactive. The reactive departments will make changes only after there is a tragedy and someone dredges up the information from this thread and delivers it to the media and / or elected officials. This will show that the problem was known about in advance and those responsible failed to make changes. At that point, change will be demanded by outsiders and it will come swiftly. The very fact that several individuals are so outraged by this thread begs for it to remain open. If you believe that this whole thing is a non-issue, just don't read it. Also, for those who repeatedly state that this is not the forum for this discussion...I think it is the perfect forum. Sure, there are other avenues for obtaining, discussing, and disseminating this information. However, for myself and others who love the fire service yet are quite pressed for time normally, this is great. It's fairly convenient to check in here from time to time to check up on the IA's and other issues posted on here and then chime in as time and energy permit.

Now to address some of your points: 1. Its not up to those people you mentioned because most of those people in charge dont want to admit there is a problem. That would require change and we cant have that. The travesty. The average citizen is also clueless when it comes to this. They are not given the correct info, because if they were, change would've happened already. 2. For the record, I do have loved ones that live in Northern West, Rockland, and CT, so I feel it is my right to be concerned about the the coverage they are recieving. Wether its Fire or EMS. 3. I invite you to listen to the our departments tones and point out flaws. We have some very open-minded chiefs that read this site and would take your objective criticism under consideration. (except JFLYNN -cause he would take it personnal ) 4. It has already been pointed out that by this thread that some depts have placed parades and other events above good service. 5. Once everone is trained to same level and there is 1 standard for all, there will only be 1 side. The career vs Vollie arguement will be dead because response times are the same, skills are the same, and most importantly, the public will be better served by US. Hey KCRD, you write well and you make excellent points...I'm not going to PM you cause I'm having fun trying to guess who you are. I think it's time we just start ignoring the posts of this particular individual. Let him keep going, he is actually doing a great job of displaying what some of the problems and attitudes are in this particular situation. Don't worry, people can read and most people on this site are intelligent and reasonable. They (career, volunteer and other) will see the situation and the personalities for what and who they are. However, let's not stop talking about this very serious issue. I just suggest we just not dignify some of these really off the wall posts and personal posts by engaging in debate. It is impossible to reason with an unreasonable person.

This tactic of attempting to portray me as anti-volunteer and to make this personal has been tried on here several times before and it's not going to work for you. I have many friends and acquaintances who are volunteer firefighters and there are many other volunteer firefighters who are members of this site who I may not have had the pleasure of meeting, however we respect each others positions on various issues. I volunteer myself for several worthy causes and I believe the spirit of volunteerism is one of the things which has made this country great. You mention that a majority of my posts "have to do with issues or supposed issues that are only resident within the volunteer system"...well, which are they, issues or supposed issues? If they are issues, lets discuss them and try to rectify them. If they are supposed issues (non-issues) refute me with facts, don't make personal attacks and try to deflect attention away from the issue. As far as your allegation that I am posting for the purpose of creating a career department in Northern Westchester, we are a looong way away from that, so don't worry. I'm more interested in supporting the efforts of the Southern Westchester career departments in regard to consolidation and regionalization, and in pushing Westchester County volunteer departments to be more transparent and accountable, and yes, to consolidate and regionalize- as volunteers. Of course, I have no illusions that I will change your viewpoint. I respond to your allegations and attempts at "blame shifting" not because I think you will see the light. Rather, I know that there are many reasonable, open minded people who read this site who, given the proper information, will eventually be agents of positive change for our fire service. Oh yeah, I ask these questions because I learn things from the answers too...I thought I knew the extent of this very serious problem when I mad my original post, but I now realize that it is far more serious (and ridiculous) than I ever would have imagined...(numerous departments actually bring several apparatus and most of their active members to LAKE GEORGE?? Wow.) qtip

I'm sorry that you have found my post to be condescending. It wasn't meant to be. I'm also sorry that you feel that I was demanding information. I wasn't. I'm sorry that you feel that this a dead topic. I don't agree. I think it is a current topic and a very important one. I'm curious about a couple of things I noticed in your post though...first, why do you assume that this is about volunteers or somehow trying to make volunteers look "less than qualified for their jobs"? I never mentioned the word volunteer. I asked a question about fire departments and I was referring to both career as well as volunteer.

Thanks for making such a thoughtful and informative post. Do departments from the lower Hudson Valley actually bring their apparatus to Lake George??

I prefer to do it on here thanks. This way many more people besides me can see the answers, or lack thereof, and thus become informed regarding the extent of this very serious issue. The silence thus far is deafening. There is much more specific information in the other thread regarding where and when the parades are than in this one. Why do you think that is? BTW, you can call me John, Johnny, Chief, Mr. Flynn, Flynny, but please don't call me Flynn, it comes across as disrespectful and confrontational, even though I always remember to QTIP.

Thank you for your opinion. Would it be possible for you to provide any specific, factual information?

Good observations...I don't have much to add ... I don't like to Monday morning quarterback either but that video was painful and embarassing to watch. Oh yeah, this whole idea of walking aroung outside the building with your facepiece on, which unfortunately this is not the first time I've ssen it on video, is actually comical...I'm happy to say that I've never seen that on any fireground I've been on, however if I ever do, someone is going to get a slap...

You guys really pay for your own meals?

The City doesn't pay for your meals????

Oh, I should add that there actually are formal mutual aid plans now (post 911) for Yonkers and other Westchester career departments to provide mutual aid to NYC when requested. Training has taken place, but I believe this would be for another large scale terrorist incident. Also, in this scenario, Yonkers would quickly detail Firefighters over to companies going into NYC so that there would be 5 Firefighters and an Officer per company and then call back off duty members to backfill the depleted companies remaining in Yonkers.

No, I don't think your BC got too involved either. I wasn't there until much later that night, but I was told by our first due BC, a very sharp and experienced guy who is now retired, that pretty early on, an FDNY BC walked up and said something like, "you guys gotta get more water on this fire" (at least that's how he heard it, lol...in hindsight he thought it was pretty funny but he wasn't laughing at the time)...there wasn't a lot showing from the front of the building but there was fire venting from at least twenty windows in the rear, numerous rescues were in progress (not removals, rescues), including this Chief's Aide, who wound up on the top floor rear with a family hanging out a window and being rescued by Tower Ladder. Also, at least one Mayday and many other companies making rescues. Lots of calls for help on the radio, etc. so our BC said something like, "thanks, I'll take that under advisement"...that was about the extent of the interaction from what I was told and it's perfectly understandable from both sides. As far as having a mutual aid system for a fire like this in Southern Yonkers where FDNY is closer than County resources, that would be the purview of our Commissioner and Chief of Ops., but I imagine the problems would be #1. it's not actually mutual aid unless it goes both ways and I'm not so sure FDNY would be comfortable having a formal plan to operate with any outside departments, even Yonkers #2. Legal issues as I believe there is some NYS law covering mutual aid which requires or at least recommends that it be within the county before going out of the county...I'm not sure on this though...Bnechis??? In any event, although we strive to be as self sufficient as possible, it's good to know that we have you guys as our neighbors for those times when we are out of options. In regard to what another poster asked about whether a Southern Westchester Regional Career Department being available as a mutual aid partner would have made a response to this fire much more efficient, my answer would be a resounding yes.

BTW I think there was a fatality at this job also.

The entire building was involved in fire from 10 minutes after our arrival. Yes, FDNY did not go to work at this fire and in hindsight a 3 and 2 response from FDNY would have been very helpful. The problem is as mentioned in the PACE study, mutual aid plans are drawn up by County...so our civilian dispachers who are supervised and controlled by Police (no uniformed Fire Supervisors at all) would not think to request an FDNY response until all county resources are used up, even if a fire of this magnitude, bordering the Bronx, would seem to be the ideal case for an FDNY response into Yonkers. The Battalion, and later Deputy Chiefs on scene had their hands full with numerous reports of people trapped and rescues being made, as well as at least one, maybe more MAYDAYS, so they would not have had the time to worry about who was coming early on, they were just requesting what they needed and hoping to get it from somewhere. The FDNY BC who at one point approached the Yonkers first due Battalion Chief, I am told, did not offer the 3 and 2 from FDNY or even tell our Chief that they were staged, but he did offer some "suggestions" that the highly experienced Yonkers Battalion Chief did not feel were helpful. Apparently, when the first due Yonkers Battalion Chief, who was understandably quite busy, did not give the FDNY Chief his full attention, the FDNY Chief decided to leave. We very much appreciate the times we have received mutual aid and many other types of invaluable assistance from our brothers in FDNY. It is understandably hard at times for members of FDNY, with basically unlimited resources, to understand the operations of a smaller, albeit, capable and experienced department such as Yonkers.

How sad (but true) that a union, career Firefighter would be scared of retribution for posting on a website. Many of us on other jobs really don't appreciate what we have when you look at what we complain about. I am sorry you guys have to put up with this and you have my support.