Swede studies US fire service

[Future Fireman 4]

From Sweden, a Critical View of U.S. Firefighters

LISA SNOWDEN

Firehouse.Com News

"I will be impolite," Stefan Svensson PhD, Swedish firefighter and Research and Development Engineer told attendees gathered at his session on international firefighting at Fire Rescue International in Atlanta.

"I will probably tell you things you don't like to hear."

Svensson has reason to be blunt. Sweden has had only one firefighter death in the last seven years compared to the United State's line-of-duty total of 84 this year so far.

Of course, it's also important to note that the population of Sweden is just over 9 million compared to the United State's population of over 302 million. And that at last check, (2005) the U.S. Fire Administration found there were about 1,136,650 firefighters in the United States compared to Svensson's total of about 16,000 for Sweden.

Despite those numbers, Sweden's record is impressive. Especially when one considers that, according to the U.S. Fire Administration, almost half of last year's 106 line of duty deaths came not from horrible accidents at the scene of raging fires - but from heart attacks.

Svensson did not mince words as he compared the way firefighters in the United States do their jobs, compared to those in his country.

One such difference, he said, was the way U.S. firefighters see themselves.

He said American firefighters take pride in being heroes - sometimes putting a heroic act ahead of a safe one. He said American firefighters think it is heroic to die saving someone else's life. But, Svensson contends, "it's not ok to die from anything but old age."

"We aren't heroes - it's a job," he told attendees. "It's not a mission - it's a job."

Svensson said firefighter training in the two countries is also very different. He said Swedish firefighters are given training grounded in science enabling them to understand the fire.

"We want them (firefighters) to understand physics, chemistry and how to handle basic situations," he said.

He said instead of teaching 'use a lot of water on the fire, the more the better,' firefighters should be trained to ask 'why is it burning and how do we put it out in a safe way?'

American firefighters, Svensson said, are interested in ways of getting out of trouble, rather than avoiding trouble in the first place.

Svensson compared Rapid Intervention Teams to seatbelts. He said just as a driver may say 'I have a seatbelt, it's ok to go faster,' a firefighter may engage in dangerous behavior on the fireground because they have the Rapid Intervention Teams to help get them to safety.

"(There is) a dangerous situation and you are sending more people inside," he asked. "That's stupid."

Svensson proposed some solutions to the problems he pointed out. First, he proposed that higher-ups institute monetary punishments for firefighters who are not safe. He suggested fines ranging from $100 to $900 for firefighters who fail to wear personal protection equipment, venture into places they ought not on the fire ground or fail to take a medical examination. He also suggested a bonus for firefighters who use SCBA.

He said American firefighters must encourage safe behavior, rather than heroic deeds, change the way they train, and change unrealistic attitudes about firefighting.

"It's not about getting to the scene at any cost. It's about getting home."

Correct me if I'm wrong, but don't they have more content fires and less full blown house fires? This guy obviously doesn't care about firefighting brotherhood.

Mike

Edited August 28, 2007 by Future Fireman

[Guest]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but don't they have more content fires and less full blown house fires? This guy obviously doesn't care about firefighting brotherhood.

Mike

Interesting article.

I don't feel as if this guy is even addressing the issue of "brotherhood" and I certainly don't see how you would come to a conclusion that he doesn't care about firefighting. I feel the exact opposite. This guy clearly spends alot of time observing and studying the ways of the American Firefighter and those in his country. He reviews our strentghs, weaknesses, and how we die. And the statistics don't lie, we (as firefighters) die often from health and preventable injuries sustained while operating at scenes or post-emergency incidents. Just subscribe to the Secret List and you will be sickenned by the amount of death and injuries each week and how many could have been prevented.

I think he hit the nail right on the head, we are risk takers(Its the American Way) and we let our machismo take over every so often. This is a great thing,sometimes, just think of the lives saved each year because of some of the risks we take as Jakes. But on the other end of the spectrum, think about some of the ways we die(Heartattacks, Seatbelts). These have nothing to do with saving a life, these are health related(Bacon Egg and Cheese on a Grinder every shift) and brain fart mistakes.

This man is looking at our brothers from and entirely different cultural perspective. In his country, a firefighter is a civil service job. Nothing more, nothing less. In our country, we are fanatic, passionate, and amazed by the same civil service profession(Firefighting). It is nothing more than a cultural barrier. Take a look at this site for an FD somewhere in the United Kingdom. http://www.broughtonfire.com/ Read about them and see how different it is, read the page called "The Firefighters Shift" . Cultures vary, and that is life. All this man did was provide us with an outsiders perspective and some constructive criticism. I feel that this is valuable to the future of our Service.

Be Safe.

[Future Fireman 4]

Well, I was only talking about the firefighter's brotherhood, not firefighting in general.

Mike

Edited August 28, 2007 by Future Fireman

[Guest]

I know you were, you made a blanket statement about him not caring about the "brotherhood". Which I disagreed with, and gave my opinion about. Which you may or may not have wanted to hear. I apologize if you were offended by it. Shouldn't you be in school right now?

[Future Fireman 4]

Ha ha, funny story about that..... i start later in the week, but my mom is making me go in early to give her teacher friends a hand with unpacking supplies. Besides, I get out at 2 P.M.

On a more serious note, i was not offended by your statement, I just don't like it when people don't believe in the firefighting brotherhood.

Mike

[helicopper 1,050]

That he makes some very critical observations of the fire service does not mean that he's not part of the "brotherhood" - quite the contrary, it is often those that are most critical who have the best intentions at heart. His goal is not to demonize the fire service but rather to question some of the tactics and traditions that may be resulting in injuries and deaths.

His perception is coldly analytical and devoid of the emotion that may sometimes cloud our judgment. He raises some interesting questions that are probably worthy of consideration.

Don't just dismiss his observations because you don't like what he has to say. Take a deep breath and consider whether or not he may have struck a nerve that can save your life!

[Oswegowind 17]

I agree with chris192...sometimes we have to be treated harshly to understand the truth. Enough sugar coating things! I think that the recent incidents, namely Baltimore and the Deutsche Bank, prove that things can't be taken lightly. I commend those who are taking action in these situations and hope that more people step up for safety.

It is time for change...and as our current motto here is, CHANGE STARTS HERE!

Read this article, take a deep breath, and don't react but absorb the message! Brotherhood is even better, when all brothers are alive to enjoy it!

[velcroMedic1987 330]

Took a foreigner to tell us that "tradition" is killing us. nice.

[firemoose827 324]

Excellent article, and he makes some very excellent points. I agree with the last few posts...we should be taking a deep look at these comments and realizing he is saying them AS a brother...to many brothers and sisters....saying we should take a better look at what we do on scene, and with our health. We have become waay to lax when it comes to our physical condition. Paid firefighters must pass physical tests...armed services undergo physical training everyday...arent we a para-military organization? I believe one drill night a month should be Physical Training: weightlifting, cardio on the bike or treadmill, walking/jogging, etc. We as firefighters should be more concerned with our health, eat healthier and work out more around the firehouse...its a scary thing with all of the heart attacks in the fire service, and my father had one at 48!! He had to be shocked twice and revived!

Good point about the safety net thing as well....when he brings up the fact that firefighters probably do feel safer and more invincible with the RIT on scene and therefore attempt more dangerous tactics. We should remember our training; our safety is paramount to anything else. What good is it to loose 6 firefighters in an attempt to save one person? We need to study our fire science more in-depth, learn building construction better and the results each has on fire spread, we need to realise its not just "put the wet stuff on the red stuff" any more. I hope to hear more from this firefighter and I hope he writes many reports and articles on his study here in america. If anyone hears of them before us please post them here as will I.

We should all learn from this. Great Stuff!!

Stay safe

Moose

[Guest feraldan]

There remains a place for heroism in the fire service, despite what this guy says. Our LODD's could be a fraction of what they are and yet we could still take risks to make tough saves.

Buckle up in the rig, respond with due caution, drive carefully to/from the firehouse, live a healthier lifestyle, get regular physicals, practice and drill your a** off, continue learning new safety techniques, keep your equipment in good shape.

Those things have nothing to do with removing heroism or even on the job risk and yet they are some of the most key items in avoiding LODD's. Tradition isn't killing us, bad and avoidable habits are.

I also don't believe his comments take into account the fact that we have guys in their late 50's and 60's still working on the fireground. A lot of volunteers never "retire" from the fire service, they keep going until they drop, or at least until they're forced to step down.

I'd much rather die doing something I love or trying to make a difference than wasting away in a bed at 95. But that choice is up to every individual.

[Remember585 815]

I have to say, he's got some good points but it's as if the paper that published it is trying to start an international war.

I don't think that we, as firefighters, take "extra risks" or "become more aggressive" because a RIT/FAST is in place. I think the majority of firefighters and fire departments have grown up a little - meaning we take more time looking around and becoming aware of our surroundings. Having the FAST/RIT there is great, but I know that I do as much as I can to avoid making them come get me. I have yet to see or hear someone say that "Hey, the FAST is here so I can push my limits."

As for our health - it's a nationwide problem affecting EVERYONE! If obesity becomes acceptable by the general public, it will become damn near impossible to change the way we look at it and try to prevent it.

As a fat guy myself I know I have to do something about it, but when most of the crap we eat is actually cheaper then the stuff good for us - it almost becomes a dollars and cents thing vs. a health thing. Not to mention the lack of time most people have to make a healthy meal when getting crap on a bun takes a minute or two.

Good article, and for the most part the info is accurate, but it really isn't new to us.

[jayhalsey 6]

Anyone else see anything wrong with the way he is using his numbers? Percentage wise, the US has less LODD's than sweeden by a factor of 100, if my calcualtions are correct (.00625% vs. .0000879%) . Since the US has about 71 times more firefighters that Sweden, then the numbers come out roughly equal. We have alot more firefighters, so of course we are going to have alot more casualties. If you do the math, if Sweden's number of firefighters equaled the US', they would have 71 LODD's right now, assuming the same rate(1 per 16000). That really isnt that far off of 84. Yes it's lower, but not by that much. In fact, as soon as they get a second lodd, that number would jump to about 142.

EDIT: Somehow didnt see the "seven years" part in the original post. So, nevermind my post.

Edited August 29, 2007 by jayhalsey

[Monty 35]

Excellent article, and he makes some very excellent points. I agree with the last few posts...we should be taking a deep look at these comments and realizing he is saying them AS a brother...to many brothers and sisters....saying we should take a better look at what we do on scene, and with our health. We have become waay to lax when it comes to our physical condition. Paid firefighters must pass physical tests...armed services undergo physical training everyday...arent we a para-military organization? I believe one drill night a month should be Physical Training: weightlifting, cardio on the bike or treadmill, walking/jogging, etc. We as firefighters should be more concerned with our health, eat healthier and work out more around the firehouse...its a scary thing with all of the heart attacks in the fire service, and my father had one at 48!! He had to be shocked twice and revived!

Good point about the safety net thing as well....when he brings up the fact that firefighters probably do feel safer and more invincible with the RIT on scene and therefore attempt more dangerous tactics. We should remember our training; our safety is paramount to anything else. What good is it to loose 6 firefighters in an attempt to save one person? We need to study our fire science more in-depth, learn building construction better and the results each has on fire spread, we need to realise its not just "put the wet stuff on the red stuff" any more. I hope to hear more from this firefighter and I hope he writes many reports and articles on his study here in america. If anyone hears of them before us please post them here as will I.

We should all learn from this. Great Stuff!!

Stay safe

Moose

I'm not sure that all career departments have physical tests - I know 10 years ago that wasn't the case. Also, saying one drill night a month be Physical Education is assuming that you have at least one drill night a month!!!!

I think that ties in to the 'volunteer' aspect - there are many departments that do not want to reduce the ranks - either through age, discipline, training or anything else. Now on the other hand, I do know from firefighters in our department, that there are departments that will take you from the active list if you do not meet the requirements.

[Guest feraldan]

I believe one drill night a month should be Physical Training: weightlifting, cardio on the bike or treadmill, walking/jogging, etc.

Sorry but that brings up two different problems:

First, if people would even show up. I'm assuming we're talking about volunteers.

Second, one night a month of exercise is not going to change anything. One night a week...... maybe. Physical fitness is of course about the whole picture. Of course having a trainer come in or something once a month to teach people the proper way to work out, that might be a great idea.

[BIGRED1 71]

If you do the math, if Sweden's number of firefighters equaled the US', they would have 71 LODD's right now, assuming the same rate(1 per 16000). That really isnt that far off of 84.

Also take into account that some of those LODD's are more then one at the same time, such as 2 in FDNY or the 9 in South Carolina. So it's not like it was 84 individual LODD incidents. It was 71 incidents WITH 84 LODD's.

I think we all take risks because thats part of the job. we go into burning buildings. people are going to get hurt.

[Oswegowind 17]

There are two ways to look at everything. Half full and half empty. Yes, breaking down the numbers does say something, but looking at 1 death in 7 years is another.

That shows that they have not had an incident in which more than 1 firefighter perished at a time. That says something, no? A point was just constructed based on the fact that in the US we have had a number of incidents in which more than 1 person has died there at. That is not a good thing, the reason you go in with a buddy is "safety". I know a good many firefighters, and I would be saddened if anyone of them died and it could have been prevented. It is not fair to the families of these that perish that we continue to take risks that go far beyond that of fighting a fire, such as driving wrecklessly, sending men into unsafe conditions prior to a really in depth size up, and so on. One of the things I saw with the Deustche Bank incident last week was that they did not send in a 3 man scout team to establish whether or not it would be safe to send in more men. Unfortunately technology is not that good and while you may issue a mayday, that doesn't mean anyone knows where it is that you have positioned yourself. Even if 1 person knows where you went, they may miss your transmission cause they are doing other things, and then you can become a "hero". Remember this, you may never know that you are a "hero", cause most people become heroes secondary to dying.

[Guest partyrock]

Yes, there are alot of reasons why you can't compare Sweden's LODD rate to ours but lets look beyond that. There is a common perception throughout Europe that American ffs are cowboys. One of the biggest differences is building construction. Wood frame structures are the vast majority here while Europe is dominated by masonry construction. In order to save structures we have to be more aggressive. Those differences aside we could be one of the safest countries in the world if we would stop killing ourselves. If you die because you didn't bucle up or because you smoked an intersection without clearing it or because you decided to have that bacon egg and cheese every morning instead of a bowl of cereal then you are a jackass. If you don't make it to the scene or drop while in the structure you are putting your brothers lives at risk.

[firemoose827 324]

Sorry but that brings up two different problems:

First, if people would even show up. I'm assuming we're talking about volunteers.

Second, one night a month of exercise is not going to change anything. One night a week...... maybe. Physical fitness is of course about the whole picture. Of course having a trainer come in or something once a month to teach people the proper way to work out, that might be a great idea.

Sorry, I should have told you guys this too, for Feraldan and Monty...we have something going on every wednesday. The first one being the meeting and the rest being drills. We have a full weight room with bike, treadmill, nautilus(?) and free weights. I was just speaking hypotheticaly with the one night a month because I know there will always be the complainers who just b**** about everything...I would not make it mandatory but I would try to do something like what Monty said and thats if you dont pass an annual physical (on top of the OSHA/PESH one) you dont get class "A" privelages. I dont know how feasible this would be but I think the cause would be worth the try. Especially if we raised awareness of health issues and dropped the heart attack rate in the fire service.

Anythings worth the try if its to save our bretheren from becoming a LODD statistic.

Stay Safe

Moose

[Guest feraldan]

Sorry, I should have told you guys this too, for Feraldan and Monty...we have something going on every wednesday. The first one being the meeting and the rest being drills. We have a full weight room with bike, treadmill, nautilus(?) and free weights. I was just speaking hypotheticaly with the one night a month because I know there will always be the complainers who just b**** about everything...I would not make it mandatory but I would try to do something like what Monty said and thats if you dont pass an annual physical (on top of the OSHA/PESH one) you dont get class "A" privelages. I dont know how feasible this would be but I think the cause would be worth the try. Especially if we raised awareness of health issues and dropped the heart attack rate in the fire service.

The only issue is that its a cultural thing like someone said previously. Its too easy (and economically feasible) to eat badly. You can run on a treadmill every day of your life and still die of an infraction. I agree with you that its worth a shot but I don't know how many volunteer departments would be willing to deprive themselves of interior guys because they weren't in solid shape.

All the issues involved with LODD's need to be addressed and attacked separately but beyond that it takes personal responsibility, especially with volunteers, to make the changes needed to avoid most common LODD's.

My point was that this guy is talking about how we have a tradition of putting ourselves in harm's way and taking unnecessary risks and he's way off base. Our guys by and large are not dying while pulling a victim out of a fire, they're dying while driving to a scene. They're dying while driving to the firehouse. They're dying in MVA's. They're dying in TRAINING.

Firefighting is risky. Like I said before, if I didn't accept that fact and still feel that risk is both inherent and necessary, I'd stay home and watch TV.

[Monty 35]

Yes, there are alot of reasons why you can't compare Sweden's LODD rate to ours but lets look beyond that. There is a common perception throughout Europe that American ffs are cowboys. One of the biggest differences is building construction. Wood frame structures are the vast majority here while Europe is dominated by masonry construction. In order to save structures we have to be more aggressive. Those differences aside we could be one of the safest countries in the world if we would stop killing ourselves. If you die because you didn't bucle up or because you smoked an intersection without clearing it or because you decided to have that bacon egg and cheese every morning instead of a bowl of cereal then you are a jackass. If you don't make it to the scene or drop while in the structure you are putting your brothers lives at risk.

You may have hit the nail on the head there - certainly a significant issue. Should we be so concerned about saving structures? Isn't that our third incident priority? I'm currently thinking of two multi-LODD incidents, in commercial buildings - actually you can probably add the Boston multi-LODD to that as well. The life hazard at 130 Liberty St was very low. Personally, I think the life hazard in South Carolina was very low. Obviously I wasn't at either so I don't know for sure what was happening on the ground.

Yes, I feel bad for the people involved when they pretty much lose everything - but I'd feel a lot worse if we lost a life or lives.

Maybe the point is we are too agressive. How agressive are you going to be to save a lightweight construction building? A bowling alley? A strip mall? Maybe we should better educate every one, especially with regards to construction, life safety etc. To some extent, maybe a large extent, every one on the board here has that desire.

As other's have indicated - and contrary to some others - I don't want to die doing my job. I want to live happily ever after and enjoy my kids and eventually their kids and so on. Also, I don't want to see anyone else die doing their job either.

Monty.

[Guest feraldan]

There's a difference between taking big risks for a building and taking big risks to save lives.

Svensson didn't differentiate. In fact he specifically targeted FAST and RIT's.

[firemoose827 324]

There's a difference between taking big risks for a building and taking big risks to save lives.

Svensson didn't differentiate. In fact he specifically targeted FAST and RIT's.

"Svensson compared Rapid Intervention Teams to seatbelts. He said just as a driver may say 'I have a seatbelt, it's ok to go faster,' a firefighter may engage in dangerous behavior on the fireground because they have the Rapid Intervention Teams to help get them to safety."Quote from article.

Yes...but he actually blamed RIT's for making the firefighters do more dangerous things on the fireground by giving them a false sense of security with their presence...I never felt that way, but thats what he said. I wonder how many firefighters do feel that way?

Edited August 30, 2007 by Jonesy368

[Guest feraldan]

I never felt that way, but thats what he said. I wonder how many firefighters do feel that way?

I have never heard anything even close to that. The only comments I have ever heard have been that FAST is a last resort. Most well-trained and halfway intelligent firefighters never want a FAST team to have to come in after them.

I think Svensson attempted to make a cultural assumption and came up very wrong.

[firemoose827 324]

I have never heard anything even close to that. The only comments I have ever heard have been that FAST is a last resort. Most well-trained and halfway intelligent firefighters never want a FAST team to have to come in after them.

I think Svensson attempted to make a cultural assumption and came up very wrong.

I agree...If I needed I FAST rescue I would never hear the end of it from the guys at the station!! I just think it would be interesting to have an outsider take a look at us and tell us what he thinks. Has he actually done this study yet? Cause it sounds like he is just starting. Just curious.

[Guest feraldan]

I think that was about it. He was just giving his little speech at the International Fire Rescue expo.

The seminar was billed as: "Sweden has had only one firefighter death in the last seven years. Dr. Stefan Svensson, Swedish Rescue Services Agency, will outline how they do it and why Sweden is a safe haven for firefighters."

He used America comparatively but what he failed to realize is that you can't compare America to Sweden when it comes to firefighting. If the American fire service upheld the same approach that the Swedes take there would be a small decline in LODD's and a huge surge in civilian deaths and property loss.

Svensson also doesn't account for the differences in architecture between our countries. How many fires do we fight as a country at dilapidated crack houses? In bastardized constructions? In project housing? How about the brothers we've lost so far in out of control wildland fires? Compare the acreage of Sweden's last wildland fire to America's last wildland fire. Compare the structures-to-manpower ratio in this country and then compare to Sweden. How about population per square mile vs. Sweden. Most people equals more possible victims... it equals more chances for an incident.. more chances for fire... higher response volumes.

Nothing in that speech leads me to believe that Svensson did any significant research into why we're losing brothers. It does however lead me to believe that he used cultural stereotypes and limited experience to make an unfair judgment on the way we do business. If he did do his research, he'd be advocating nutrition plans and stricter building regulations, not "cowboy" attitudes.

Things like wearing proper PPE and buckling up, we know that already! He's not breaking any new ground. Like I said before, the individual firefighter needs to take personal responsibility for things like personal health and safer responses. That is the way to seriously cut down LODD's and we didn't need some Swede with a doctorate to tell us so.

[Monty 35]

I agree...If I needed I FAST rescue I would never hear the end of it from the guys at the station!! I just think it would be interesting to have an outsider take a look at us and tell us what he thinks. Has he actually done this study yet? Cause it sounds like he is just starting. Just curious.

I think this kind of attitude ties in to what the Dr. was saying - albeit a different slant. Given the machismo / tradition etc of the service how reluctant are people to ask for help. We need to change that attitude - find out why we need help and then work to avoid that situation.

It's obviously very early, and a lot more information to come, but from reading below the Jakes tragically lost in Boston are reported to have been disoriented. How agressive were they? How concerned were they about calling a mayday or for RIT / FAST? I'm certainly not looking to knock or put down these guys, and maybe they did call immediately for help and there were other issues - but I'm sure there are plenty of FF's out there that would be very reluctant to admit there's even possibly a problem and ask for help.

Hey...

Here is an update on last nights fire that tragically killed 2 Boston Firefighters and injuring others. Initially, there were reports of 2 other Firefighters on life support, but all surviving injured members are now reported to be non life threatening.

The Firefighters who gave their lives in the Line of Duty last night are Paul Cahill (55) and Warren Payne (53), who were assigned at Engine 30 and Ladder 25. Numerous other Firefighters were transported with non-life-threatening injuries. Boston Fire Chief Kevin MacCurtain said several firefighters from the first due crew that arrived on scene entered the building to attack the fire. Civilians were all out of the building but the heavy smoke and fire conditions in the initial stages of operations caused the members to become disoriented. "When they arrived they had heavy fire in the Thai restaurant with heavy smoke conditions on the block," MacCurtain said. "They advanced their lines into the store, and they became trapped and they were disoriented and they couldn't find their way out." Chief MacCurtain also said that a 3-ton air conditioning unit partially crashed through the roof of the restaurant but that it was unclear what role this played in the firefighter deaths and injurie s. He said the first crews of firefighters quickly became trapped and disoriented. Other crews found the trapped firefighters and pulled them out.

FF Payne was the father of two and FF Cahill was the married father of two. Both had 25 years on the job. Five Boston firefighters have died during or after fires since 1994. They include David Milton, who died earlier this year when he got home from a shift at a firehouse; David Packard, who died of a heart attack after a fire in 1999, Dick Murphy, died of a heart attack after a fire, also in 1999; James Ellis, who died from injuries after he fell down a fire pole when responding to a fire call in 1996 and Steve Minehan, who was killed in a warehouse fire in Charlestown (Boston) in 1994. Steve was killed following a search for other missing Firefighters in that fire.

We are closely monitoring the conditions of the 2 Firefighters who are in critically condition and will update as applicable here and on our home page. Our deepest sympathies go out to all effected but especially the Payne and Cahill families and the members of the BFD E-30/L-25.

Take Care-BE CAREFUL.

BillyG

The Secret List 8-30-07 / 0843 hours

www.FireFighterCloseCalls.com

[Guest alsfirefighter]

This guy obviously doesn't care about firefighting brotherhood.

Why is that? Perhaps he cares about it even more then some other because he will, is and did say things that others won't. The 'brotherhood' clause only and should only carry so far.

Interesting article and insight. Can't say I disagree with many things. Other things I can say I wholeheartedly agree with and some others I have to shake my head.

I know I for one and many of my colleagues believe that a great firefighter is the one with both the technical book smarts and great hands on ability and experience. I try to convey this to my students right from firefighter 1. Anyone can be taught to do something..knowing why something is happening by the fire and your actions is critical. 2 things make great firefighters and fire officers as a foundation...knowledge of building construction and fire behavior. Everything else plays off of that.

[Future Fireman 4]

Can we just drop the brotherhood issue? I'll be a good little boy and shut up now.

Mike

[DOC22 1]

Can we just drop the brotherhood issue? I'll be a good little boy and shut up now.

Mike

Mike,

I agree with you. I don't think we need to carry on about the brotherhood issue any more! There's plenty other stuff in this thread open for discussion. So ket's drop this issue!

[nycemt728 49]

He's got some excellent points, and yes the the truth does hurt sometimes and more importantly, alot of timse it takes a set of outside eyes to get a good view. While I agree he didn't mention the firefighting "brotherhood", I think his more important point was that you can't have brotherhoof if your all dying for doing stupid things!!!