Mutual Aid - Who Do You Call

[50-65 205]

Here in Orange County, if I were the IC, whether it be a fire scene or ems, I could call for mutual aid from the moon before any neighboring department.

At what point should the decision about where my mutual aid comes from be made by someone who has no personal interest in whether or not you are paid or volunteer or if your company did or did not invite my company to your last BBQ?

If you need mutual aid, unless you require a specialized piece of equipment or team, would it not make sense to start with a closer department rather than one 3 districts or 25 minutes away?

Just wondering. What are your thoughts?

[SageVigiles 1,194]

This topic has been visited MANY times on this site, but I whole-heartedly agree with you. Unless the neighboring town has a history of reckless and/or dangerous operation, I don't see why they shouldn't be first up to assist me. Egos and pride are usually the reason they don't get called.

As far as specialized teams, in CT we regionalized most of our special operations assets. The state Division of Emergency Managment and Homeland Security keeps track of who has what and you request assets through the Regional Coordinator.

This is the 2011 Map, I couldn't find the 2012 one on a public site:

www.ct.gov/cfpc/lib/cfpc/State_responder_assets_Jan_2011full.pdf

In Region 2 we have the following assets:

HAZMAT Team (5 Divisions)

Mass Decon Trailers (6)

Foam Trailer (1)

Medical Reserve Corps (Its actually 5 now, City of New Haven just started one)

STOCS Box (interoperability system for radios) (14)

ICall/ITac Towers (5)

Shelter Cot Caches (4)

Mass Casualty Trailer (1)

Sandbag Cache (3)

We also have access to any other resource in the state, including:

State Police ESU

State Animal Response Teams (SART) - (2)

Disaster Medical Assistance Team (DMAT)

Urban Search and Rescue Team (USAR)

These are all the state or regionally purchased/funded assets. There are other special operations assets that are not funded by the state or region but can still be requested through Regional Coordinators.

Edited September 17, 2012 by SageVigiles

[LTFIREPRG 154]

It makes perfect sense to have to closest available (qualified) units respond to a mutual aid call. The first and most important information that should be used in determining your mutual aid coverage is their qualifications and training. For example, just because a department claims to have a fast team and are ready to respond county wide and beyond, the lack of accredited, initial and continual training should cause an IC to by pass them. The second important factor is resources, both manpower and apparatus/equipment. Does the closest department have adequate resources to be able to provide the mutual aid required.

Mutual aid should not be based on whether or not the department is career or volunteer but on their abilities (training and resources). Unfortunately the statement about who was or was not invited to the company BBQ, or who peed in who’s corn flakes and super egos play and will continue to play a large role in the determination of departments mutual aid responses.

Here are two prime examples. I had a call one day on a highway, a mini van left the roadway and rolled down a steep embankment approximately 30 feet into a wooded area. The vehicle was badly damaged on its roof and the occupants were missing. The call was in our district by about a mile. The Chief of the bordering department about 15/20 min into the call shows up and his first question was “how did you get this call, I think its mine”. Not what do you have, do you need anything.

The second was on the same highway, a van parked on the center maiden was on fire, the fire was located in the bordering district. Upon our arrival the chief quickly waved us off telling us he had it. We asked if he wanted us to assist or stand by encase they need additional water. We were told he had it and we were not needed. The long and short of it is 45 minutes later they were still doing water shuttles for the van and now grass fire.

The point being how about working together, providing the best possible service, as quick and safe as possible and leaving your egos at home.

[firemoose827 324]

My county has the County Fire Coordinators who respond to any fire involving mutual aid. As everyone knows its the responsibility of these coordinators to "coordinate" mutual aid, fill in empty fire stations for coverage, and get whatever resources the IC is calling for to the scene, so the IC does not need to worry about it. But...I feel that the issue with who do you call for mutual aid extends to every sector, not just like you mentioned between a volunteer and paid department.

I will usually go to the station if I hear a neighboring department get toned for a major fire, whether its a structure or brush, and I will start the tanker, get gear ready, and wait for the call...that usually never comes...Why? Because they call for the department that has more of their "Buddies" in it, or think our department does not have what they need.

I feel there is a need to pre-plan the mutual aid you would need and let the coordinators, or even the dispatchers (if you set it up ahead of time with call cards or mutual aid tickets, whatever your county uses) call the closest, appropriate department to assist you. Too many IC's in my area call for the departments they "want" instead of the closest department, and it makes no sense. I have been to county training classes and overheard people talking during breaks, and saying some pretty nasty things about their neighboring department and that they would never call them for mutual aid. Im disgusted.

Im a fairly new officer, with only about 4-5 years as line officer for 3 different departments (fire) and 5 years experience as line officer and captain for an EMS agency. When I respond to a call and find that I am first officer on scene and I am unsure about who would be closest, I generally ask for "The nearest available unit" to respond mutual aid. With the CAD systems today, that have the GIS capability and mileage from department to department its fairly easy for a dispatcher to find the closest department. Otherwise, I try to know my district and know who would be closer, and who would have the most direct route to the scene because there is one factor you need to think about in areas like mine, and thats how many mountains do they have to drive over, how many seasonal roads that might be closed or open, and what the roads are like between them and the scene. There are lots of winding curving steep hilly roads in my area and driving tankers over them is a nightmare. One department may be closer, but they would have to drive over rough hilly roads to get there whereas the next closest department may have a clear drive down a main road with just a few minutes extra drive time. In these cases, I ask for both to respond.

There was a major main street fire in the district just to the south of us, a 10 minute drive from our station to the fire, and I sat at the station and watched them call every department around us, and they never called us. They called 2 departments that were 20-25 minutes away and never called us. We had 5 interior firefighters plus drivers for both our tanker and our engine but they never called...untill the end of the fire when they needed help to pick up hose. Think that was a slap in the face?

I agree, mutual aid needs to be set up in advance and agreed upon by chief officers and county officials like the coordinators. I am thinking about setting up a meeting with the area fire chiefs and the coordinators to set something up for our department, if anyone has advice or ideas shoot them out, I would appreciate it.

Edited September 17, 2012 by firemoose827

[SageVigiles 1,194]

Moose, that's where you need to get your county coordinators and emergency management folks involved to find out who has what and make sure those run cards are updated.

This is also where NIMS can be used effectively. FEMA has resource typing guidelines you can download to standardize what is an "Engine Company" or a "Truck Company" etc. This ensures everyone is on the same page when it comes to whose responding with what.

[Alwaysinheat 26]

It's a shame the BS and politics involved in calling M/A. It's only a matter of time before a lawyer gets ahold of a particular incident with major property damage or a life was lost b/c an IC did not call the nearest resource. No matter your location the story is the same. I feel the easiest way to solve this is to relieve the IC of having to deal with getting the right resources. The dispatcher would be told a particular alarm assignment or how many and type of units being requested. This allows 911 if regional to properly allocate resources and allows the IC to concentrate on the tactical concerns.

[FirNaTine 370]

Should a Dept. requesting M/A demand the Dept. providing m/a send apparatus with the same amount of manpower they provide to others? I mean if a Career Dept. follows NFPA 1710 guidelines to provide adequate Fire Protection for their citizens they should expect the same from a M/A Dept.. Is it ok though for a Dept. responding on m/a to put a rig o.o.s. to meet this criteria just to satisfy the requesting Dept.'s demand, leaving their juristiction inadequately protected? Or worse yet, this same Dept. calls guys back on OT to man spare apparatus to cover those that went m/a to a municipality that may even be threatening or have actually laid guys off and closed stations or Companies. IMO if you can't provide adequate staffing and equipment levels 24/7/365 let the requesting m/a Dept. look elsewhere for someone to come and play in their sandbox! Enough already with this B/S!

[firemoose827 324]

Moose, that's where you need to get your county coordinators and emergency management folks involved to find out who has what and make sure those run cards are updated.

This is also where NIMS can be used effectively. FEMA has resource typing guidelines you can download to standardize what is an "Engine Company" or a "Truck Company" etc. This ensures everyone is on the same page when it comes to whose responding with what.

Thank you Sage, I am going to attempt to set up a meeting, but trying to set up a meeting and actually getting people to attend and participate is another whole story! lol

I was thinking of alarms, second alarm, third alarm etc, bu it my area its tough to do with fire districts and village fire departments. We could pre-plan for a 2nd alarm consisting of tankers and manpower from the next 2 closest available departments, and a 3rd bringing the same resources from the next two departments I guess. Might confuse and confound at first but everything new around me always does at first, but when they get used to it things settle down. (Until the next guy stirs the pot)

[SageVigiles 1,194]

Thank you Sage, I am going to attempt to set up a meeting, but trying to set up a meeting and actually getting people to attend and participate is another whole story! lol

Trust me, you aren't alone on that one...

[FF1 172]

In lower westchester county, career depts. only request m/a from other career depts, many times skipping over several neighboring volunteer depts in the process. If all the career depts are exhausted, it is also not uncommon for career depts to request combo depts m/a with only the career staff and no volunteers.

[JM15 386]

In lower westchester county, career depts. only request m/a from other career depts, many times skipping over several neighboring volunteer depts in the process. If all the career depts are exhausted, it is also not uncommon for career depts to request combo depts m/a with only the career staff and no volunteers.

Im sure this is going to cause a debate... Can you cite some instances?

[drgripsthrowawaytowel 72]

In lower westchester county, career depts. only request m/a from other career depts, many times skipping over several neighboring volunteer depts in the process. If all the career depts are exhausted, it is also not uncommon for career depts to request combo depts m/a with only the career staff and no volunteers.

Because the career departments have firefighters who are staffed in house ready to go. If I was an IC of either a career, volly or combo department, if dept x is a little closer, but need to page out for members, have them respond to the firehouse, and then finally get going, or department y that might be a little farther away, but can instantly have a staffed rig on the road, I'm going with department y.

You also have the issues of training. Volley vs career. 10 hours minimum per year, versus hundreds minimum per year. I think the answer is clearly obtained why departments call who they do, when they do.

[Newburgher 241]

Because the career departments have firefighters who are staffed in house ready to go. If I was an IC of either a career, volly or combo department, if dept x is a little closer, but need to page out for members, have them respond to the firehouse, and then finally get going, or department y that might be a little farther away, but can instantly have a staffed rig on the road, I'm going with department y.

You also have the issues of training. Volley vs career. 10 hours minimum per year, versus hundreds minimum per year. I think the answer is clearly obtained why departments call who they do, when they do.

I was typing the same response, you beat me to it. The other issue I was adding, which goes along with training is, the volunteer rig shows up with six people, of which, 2 are junior members, 2 are exterior only, and 2 are SCBA trained with several courses, that equals a t man rig in my opinion.

[Atv300 69]

I was typing the same response, you beat me to it. The other issue I was adding, which goes along with training is, the volunteer rig shows up with six people, of which, 2 are junior members, 2 are exterior only, and 2 are SCBA trained with several courses, that equals a t man rig in my opinion.

And yet if you know how to you can use all of those guys. Not saying it's right for a rig to show up without scba guys buy also don't knock the help for things like ladders some vent work, and hose humping along with other things think about it this way let the guys on air do what they need to do and have the guys who are not do what needs to be done outside. It's better use of manpower.

[ffp20 14]

I was typing the same response, you beat me to it. The other issue I was adding, which goes along with training is, the volunteer rig shows up with six people, of which, 2 are junior members, 2 are exterior only, and 2 are SCBA trained with several courses, that equals a t man rig in my opinion.

In the early to mid nineties, the dept im with called in a few suburban volunteer depts for either cover assignments or to work. In multiple occasions, a bc would put them to work only to be told "we dont have any interior guys" or something to that effect. The final time they were sent home and a different arrangement was instituted after that.

[FF1 172]

Im sure this is going to cause a debate... Can you cite some instances?

i'm not taking sides... im stating a fact.

ex #1 when pelham had a fire about 6-8 months back on Wolfes Ln. in a resteraunt, they called Yonkers, White Plains, Scarsdale, Hartsdale, Greenville, Mount Vernon, Eastchester, and New Rochelle.

there was a rediculous amount of aparatus at the scene. Reason being they needed manpower and wouldnt call voli depts. they got rigs with 2 men on them from career depts. You are taking aparatus out of service in your 1st due area, because you are using them as taxi cabs for 2 guys to the scene.

[FF1 172]

In the early to mid nineties, the dept im with called in a few suburban volunteer depts for either cover assignments or to work. In multiple occasions, a bc would put them to work only to be told "we dont have any interior guys" or something to that effect. The final time they were sent home and a different arrangement was instituted after that.

I agree with that. M/A in voli depts should be a list of qualified guys with a certain level of trainning. The question is, how do you police the guys responding to m/a jobs? there is a huge grey area

[spin_the_wheel 460]

How hard would it be for the 2 Depts involved to have an understanding that if the Volunteer Dept is called into the Career area on M/A they must have the same amount or more interior F/F's as staffed on the same career rig that is requested. Career has a staffing of 4 on an Engine...the volunteer company coming in M/A must have 4 or more as well. Career Ladder has 3....volunteer M/A ladder must have at least 3.

[PHIL78 129]

An IC at a job, career or volley shouldn't have to find out the qualifications of the mutual aid he called.They should be qualified to perform the tasks assigned to them,have a officer able to make decisions and get the job done and not be another thing the IC has to worry about he's got enough already. Carreer depts in Westchester call each other cause they know what they're getting.

[x129K 1,393]

Seems to be plenty of Door Dancers that come mutual aid, from my experience.

[FF1 172]

An IC at a job, career or volley shouldn't have to find out the qualifications of the mutual aid he called.They should be qualified to perform the tasks assigned to them,have a officer able to make decisions and get the job done and not be another thing the IC has to worry about he's got enough already. Carreer depts in Westchester call each other cause they know what they're getting.

there is a bigger issue then. the administration of these depts are flawed. the chief or commissioner should require a certain level of training for their members. Either way there are other reasons volis arent called to assist career depts. I'd be nieve to say otherwise

[JetPhoto 626]

50-65 - Orange County is a very unique animal. Granted they get the calls and handle them like professionals but at the same time seems to be so disorginized with mutual aid in a few sections of the county. It's just like the communications system (a hole different topic) If your talking specificly on mutual aid on the East side of the county, I think I know what part of your concern is.

[gamewell45 258]

I was typing the same response, you beat me to it. The other issue I was adding, which goes along with training is, the volunteer rig shows up with six people, of which, 2 are junior members, 2 are exterior only, and 2 are SCBA trained with several courses, that equals a t man rig in my opinion.

My question is; what are Junior members doing on apparatus responding to a mutual aid call in the first place?

Edited September 17, 2012 by gamewell45

[x129K 1,393]

My question is; what are Junior members doing on apparatus responding to a mutual aid call in the first place?

Shoot....Thats pretty common around here.

[Danger 160]

There are tons of cases where personal feelings change alarm assignments and that is categorically wrong. But it is also true that your next door neighbor isn't always the best crew for the job. You have to factor in training and manpower. While we're beating the dead horse, if NYS would step up to the plate and make a universal standard to be a firefighter we could avoid this. Sorry for the suggestion, FASNY.

[PFDRes47cue 653]

I was typing the same response, you beat me to it. The other issue I was adding, which goes along with training is, the volunteer rig shows up with six people, of which, 2 are junior members, 2 are exterior only, and 2 are SCBA trained with several courses, that equals a t man rig in my opinion.

My department only allows interior certified adult members to respond to mutual aid calls. No juniors or exterior members allowed. I do not think mutual aid runs are any place for juniors to be... just my opinion.

Edited September 17, 2012 by PFDRes47cue

[x129K 1,393]

My department only allows interior certified adult members to respond to mutual aid calls. No juniors or exterior members allowed. I do not think mutual aid runs are any place for juniors to be... just my opinion.

I agree with you now....however...one of the best fires I was ever in was when I was a 17 year old Junior. For you Dutchess guys - remember the old Rancho Inn fire in Union Vale - that was a helluva night. I had on an old black cotton duck 3/4 length coat, pull up boots, leather helmet with no impact cab, a Scott 2a with the elephant hose...spent an awful long time in the rear of the building then worked our way up the stairs to a second floor apartment....crazy night.

So cold we had to de-ice the d-clips on our coats with road flares.

[Newburgher 241]

And yet if you know how to you can use all of those guys. Not saying it's right for a rig to show up without scba guys buy also don't knock the help for things like ladders some vent work, and hose humping along with other things think about it this way let the guys on air do what they need to do and have the guys who are not do what needs to be done outside. It's better use of manpower.

Shouldn't the correct way be that, if you are a firefighter at a fire scene, everyone has the same qualifications and you don't have so pick like you're starting a game of kickball? Why should it be the IC's job to figure it out. How about, if you aren't qualified, you don't go. If it leaves empty seats on the rig, maybe a bigger problem will eventually be noticed.

How hard would it be for the 2 Depts involved to have an understanding that if the Volunteer Dept is called into the Career area on M/A they must have the same amount or more interior F/F's as staffed on the same career rig that is requested. Career has a staffing of 4 on an Engine...the volunteer company coming in M/A must have 4 or more as well. Career Ladder has 3....volunteer M/A ladder must have at least 3.

It wouldn't be hard to do, in fact it should be done. Unfortunately, their feelings will be hurt, and they'll quit because they are being discriminated against. A fire is a fire. Doesn't matter if it is in a paid or volunteer district. Why there is such a different standard is so hard to imagine.

there is a bigger issue then. the administration of these depts are flawed. the chief or commissioner should require a certain level of training for their members. Either way there are other reasons volis arent called to assist career depts. I'd be nieve to say otherwise

They should, but they won't.

My question is; what are Junior members doing on apparatus responding to a mutual aid call in the first place?

Good question. Why are exterior members going too? Why not admit there is a manpower shortage, and respond with what you have, or don't go.

[Bnechis 3,961]

And yet if you know how to you can use all of those guys. Not saying it's right for a rig to show up without scba guys buy also don't knock the help for things like ladders some vent work, and hose humping along with other things think about it this way let the guys on air do what they need to do and have the guys who are not do what needs to be done outside. It's better use of manpower.

We use companies, engines, trucks, etc. so we have accountability and maintain a span of control. THe IC does not have time to keep track of a bunch of guys doing some work around the edges. When we call mutual aid we need FIREFIGHTERS, not HELPERS.

i'm not taking sides... im stating a fact.

ex #1 when pelham had a fire about 6-8 months back on Wolfes Ln. in a resteraunt, they called Yonkers, White Plains, Scarsdale, Hartsdale, Greenville, Mount Vernon, Eastchester, and New Rochelle. there was a rediculous amount of aparatus at the scene. Reason being they needed manpower and wouldnt call voli depts. they got rigs with 2 men on them from career depts. You are taking aparatus out of service in your 1st due area, because you are using them as taxi cabs for 2 guys to the scene.

I believe that all of those depts. have a policy for M/A of a minimum of 3, so which of those listed only sent 2

You have to factor in training and manpower. While we're beating the dead horse, if NYS would step up to the plate and make a universal standard to be a firefighter we could avoid this. Sorry for the suggestion, FASNY.

BINGO!!!

[x129K 1,393]

They should, but they won't.

Good question. Why are exterior members going too? Why not admit there is a manpower shortage, and respond with what you have, or don't go.

It's because they HAVE the manpower......it's just not the RIGHT manpower....more smoke and mirrors.

Edited September 17, 2012 by x129K