Dual Responses

[firedude 985]

I'd like to know why more departments don't run dual responses. They seem like a "quick fix" to manpower and equipment issues on a scene. Don't have enough cribbing for an MVA? Can't reach the tallest building in your district? If a neighboring FD does, why not borrow their resources? In more rural areas, not every FD does extrication. They rely on dual responses with rescue departments or other FD's to do it. Have a reported structure fire in a non-hydrant district? Why not have a dual response with an FD to supply a source engine, since you are probably not getting the first due engine, and tanker and source engine from the same FD anyway.

Another example would be on a highway. If your FD only has access to one direction and needs to go to the next exit in another district and flip around, don't you think that FD can get there faster? Or if there are even no ramps in your district and you have to go through another district just to get on the highway. Would it make more sense to have the FD with easier access send an engine or rescue, in addition to any of your resources to a MVA or MVF?

Suppose a FD also provides ambulance services and has manpower issues. If there is an MVA in your district, wouldn’t it make sense for your FD to supply the bus and have a dual response with a neighboring FD to supply an engine/rescue? I know this might not be the story in the Hudson valley, but upstate FD’s face this every day.

I’m not saying every call need to be a dual response, just in certain parts of a district for certain calls. I don't know the science behind a dual response so maybe someone can fill me in. Besides both chiefs approving, do commissioners/wardens/etc have any say? Do the municipalities have to approve? Can a fire district do a dual response with a fire department?

I'm in no way trying to rant here, just wondering if we are doing the best for our districts. It’s all food for thought.

Edited February 8, 2012 by firedude

[FireMedic049 597]

I'd like to know why more departments don't run dual responses. They seem like a "quick fix" to manpower and equipment issues on a scene. Don't have enough cribbing for an MVA? Can't reach the tallest building in your district? If a neighboring FD does, why not borrow their resources? In more rural areas, not every FD does extrication. They rely on dual responses with rescue departments or other FD's to do it. Have a reported structure fire in a non-hydrant district? Why not have a dual response with an FD to supply a source engine, since you are probably not getting the first due engine, and tanker and source engine from the same FD anyway.

Another example would be on a highway. If your FD only has access to one direction and needs to go to the next exit in another district and flip around, don't you think that FD can get there faster? Or if there are even no ramps in your district and you have to go through another district just to get on the highway. Would it make more sense to have the FD with easier access send an engine or rescue, in addition to any of your resources to a MVA or MVF?

Suppose a FD also provides ambulance services and has manpower issues. If there is an MVA in your district, wouldn’t it make sense for your FD to supply the bus and have a dual response with a neighboring FD to supply an engine/rescue? I know this might not be the story in the Hudson valley, but upstate FD’s face this every day.

I’m not saying every call need to be a dual response, just in certain parts of a district for certain calls. I don't know the science behind a dual response so maybe someone can fill me in. Besides both chiefs approving, do commissioners/wardens/etc have any say? Do the municipalities have to approve? Can a fire district do a dual response with a fire department?

I'm in no way trying to rant here, just wondering if we are doing the best for our districts. It’s all food for thought.

It may just be a regional terminology difference kind of thing, but I believe most of what you appear to be talking about is called "automatic aid" - the automatic response of resources other than the "home" department. A "dual response" is when 2 separate jurisdictions are dispatched to send their normal response (for the incident type) to the same incident. Probably the two most common instances would be sending a full response from both directions to an incident on a limited-access highway or a call near jurisdictional boundaries and it's unclear who's call it is at the time of dispatch.

[conman 40]

In my department, we are currently working on forming alarm assignments and a dual response system. We are already on a dual response with a neighboring a couple neighboring departments. One of these departments has at a max of 8 members, of which only one or two are interior certified so we basically do everything for them. But because we are in two different tax districts we can't consolidate and because of some stupid thing that happened years ago, the chief won't join with the bigger department in their town. We do offer a very rapid response to them as we are only at most 5 minutes from the far end of their district. But that off topic. We are beginning to run low on man power during the day with me away at school and everyone else working. We have a near by department that we occasionally bump heads with because of their tactics when they run mutual aid to us but we work past it to get the job done. For our medicals we run a dual response with a mobile life during the day.

[Bnechis 3,961]

But because we are in two different tax districts we can't consolidate

If you are in 2 different fire districts you can consolidate, 2 different villages, or towns you can as well. The only law that prevents consolidation deals with citys and other governments.

[Remember585 815]

Our department has a few dual responses / automatic aids in place for certain areas / certain call types.

For Water Rescue incidents in the Croton River, we're dispatched along with the Yorktown FD Water Rescue Team.

For incidents on the Hudson River, we get dispatched along with another Marine unit & WCPD (if in the water).

For possible structure fires in our non-hydrant areas, two Mutual Aid Tankers are dispatched initially with us.

For possible Haz-Mat incidents, the Montrose VAFD Haz-Mat team is dispatched along with our assignment.

Not to get all soap-boxy - but departments that aren't using 60 Control and taking advantage of it's CAD system to set up special responses / pre-plans are truly missing out.

[sympathomedic 383]

In my very modest experience, dual responses have gone up A LOT. Mamaroneck Town and Larchmont used to have ONE site, they now have about 4 that I can think of that trigger the dual. On the Hutch you get a "truel" of both Pelhams and Mt Vernon. The Sprain gets a duel, the airport gets what, a quadral? I-95 a dual sometimes the two Mamaronecks, sometimes Harrison and Rye. Albany Post Rd gets nearly a trual with Verplanck, Montrose and Buchanon with one going and two doing in house standby. I believe Yorktown and Mohegan have a dual for Holy Comforter NH. The "Landmark" in Hawthorne area gets a duely with Elmsford and ??. Valhalla and Hawthorne share a couple of duels. I think Pocantico goes dual for many things. Those are what comes to mind. I can't say how long those have been going on, but I bet fairly recently.

[xchief2x 79]

I hope to see more of these type responses and more departments setting up the greater alarm responses preplanned with 60 control. T really thing that the more progressive/aggressive Chiefs are doing it, but yet their are some departments that are tradionalists "We have always done it this way" that will never change. Just my humble opinion\thoughts.

[eric12401 77]

Depending on the call/location of the call, Lomontville FD gets a dual response/automatic mutual aid from Hurley FD, Olive FD, West Hurley FD, Marbletown FD or Stone Ridge FD. Ulster Hose FD gets called with their dive team to all water emergencies.

Edited February 8, 2012 by eric12401

[peterose313 345]

In my very modest experience, dual responses have gone up A LOT. Mamaroneck Town and Larchmont used to have ONE site, they now have about 4 that I can think of that trigger the dual. On the Hutch you get a "truel" of both Pelhams and Mt Vernon. The Sprain gets a duel, the airport gets what, a quadral? I-95 a dual sometimes the two Mamaronecks, sometimes Harrison and Rye. Albany Post Rd gets nearly a trual with Verplanck, Montrose and Buchanon with one going and two doing in house standby. I believe Yorktown and Mohegan have a dual for Holy Comforter NH. The "Landmark" in Hawthorne area gets a duely with Elmsford and ??. Valhalla and Hawthorne share a couple of duels. I think Pocantico goes dual for many things. Those are what comes to mind. I can't say how long those have been going on, but I bet fairly recently.

Ossining and Millwood both respond for Maryknoll

[firedude 985]

Ossining and Millwood both respond for Maryknoll

These are the automatic mutual aid/dual responses that I'm familiar with:

Pelham/Pelham Manor/Mount Vernon, Mamaroneck Town/Mamaroneck Village, Mamaroneck Town/Larchmont, Purchase/West Harrison, Croton Falls/Somers, Yorktown/Bedford Hills, Ossining/Millwood, Tarrytown/Sleepy Hollow/Irvington, Valhalla/Hawthorne, Purchase/Armonk/Port Chester, Pocantico Hills/Archville and Briarcliff/Millwood

Verplanck/Montrose/Buchanan run automatic standby mutual aid

Edited February 8, 2012 by firedude

[FF398 45]

These are the automatic mutual aid/dual responses that I'm familiar with:

Pelham/Pelham Manor/Mount Vernon, Mamaroneck Town/Mamaroneck Village, Mamaroneck Town/Larchmont, Purchase/West Harrison, Croton Falls/Somers, Yorktown/Bedford Hills, Ossining/Millwood, Tarrytown/Sleepy Hollow/Irvington, Valhalla/Hawthorne, Purchase/Armonk/Port Chester, Pocantico Hills/Archville and Briarcliff/Millwood

Verplanck/Montrose/Buchanan run automatic standby mutual aid

In addition, Montrose and Montrose VAFD run dual response to the NYS Veterans Home.

[Guest alsfirefighter]

In my very modest experience, dual responses have gone up A LOT. Mamaroneck Town and Larchmont used to have ONE site, they now have about 4 that I can think of that trigger the dual. On the Hutch you get a "truel" of both Pelhams and Mt Vernon. The Sprain gets a duel, the airport gets what, a quadral? I-95 a dual sometimes the two Mamaronecks, sometimes Harrison and Rye. Albany Post Rd gets nearly a trual with Verplanck, Montrose and Buchanon with one going and two doing in house standby. I believe Yorktown and Mohegan have a dual for Holy Comforter NH. The "Landmark" in Hawthorne area gets a duely with Elmsford and ??. Valhalla and Hawthorne share a couple of duels. I think Pocantico goes dual for many things. Those are what comes to mind. I can't say how long those have been going on, but I bet fairly recently.

and lets not forget a partridge gets a pear tree.

[grumpyff 1,159]

AFAIK it is up to the chiefs of the departments to discuss/pre plan what type of response, and then notify the dispatching agency in writing. Putnam has a standardized form that is signed by both chiefs, and can be revoked if need be

Patterson and Putnam Lake have automatic dual response of engine and tanker for any possible structure fire in either district.

[firemoose827 324]

It may just be a regional terminology difference kind of thing, but I believe most of what you appear to be talking about is called "automatic aid" - the automatic response of resources other than the "home" department. A "dual response" is when 2 separate jurisdictions are dispatched to send their normal response (for the incident type) to the same incident. Probably the two most common instances would be sending a full response from both directions to an incident on a limited-access highway or a call near jurisdictional boundaries and it's unclear who's call it is at the time of dispatch.

Thats what we call it here, "Automatic Mutual-Aid", and this is set up ahead of time as a signed agreement between the two fire chiefs. It is used a lot during the weekdays from 6a to 6p, and I have seen it used when a department knows their truck will be out of service for an extended amount of time, they will do a 24/7 agreement with the closest available unit to respond to all calls in their district.

We have one set up for daytime responses for the closest mutual aid department to be dispatched with us, and first unit to respond will give a report and make the call once they are on scene.

We are in the process now of making an agreement for "Training" purposes as well now, as funny as that sounds its true. Our new county fire training tower has a requirement that a minimum of 15 firefighters be present to use the facility. Our department has only 9 interiors, our neighbors are in the same predicament so we are going to consolidate our drill nights and combine our members for training at the tower.

[PFDRes47cue 653]

These are the automatic mutual aid/dual responses that I'm familiar with:

Pelham/Pelham Manor/Mount Vernon, Mamaroneck Town/Mamaroneck Village, Mamaroneck Town/Larchmont, Purchase/West Harrison, Croton Falls/Somers, Yorktown/Bedford Hills, Ossining/Millwood, Tarrytown/Sleepy Hollow/Irvington, Valhalla/Hawthorne, Purchase/Armonk/Port Chester, Pocantico Hills/Archville and Briarcliff/Millwood

Verplanck/Montrose/Buchanan run automatic standby mutual aid

Pleasantville get a Tanker automatically for all structural/brush fire calls in our non-hydrant areas. Pleasantville and Thornwood work together on the SMP in certain areas. Don't quote me but I believe NB between Marble Avenue and Grant Street is Thorwood FD full response with Pleasantville Rescue 47. Anything at the Marble Avenue Entrance/Exit is the same response as well.

I believe Thorwood and Valhalla respond together to some sections of the Rosehill Shopping Center. Hawthorne and Elmsford also respond together to some locations.

[DaRock98 76]

Hawthorne and Elmsford have a dual response to all of the buildings in the Landmark area along with the Home Depot on 9A.

Hawthorne also runs dual response with Valhalla weekdays from 6am-6pm for all calls that may be structure related. (IE: possible structure fires, inside smoke/gas calls of that nature) and the same for the parkways(Sprain/Taconic) calls reported extrication and car fires.

Hawthorne and Thornwood also run dual response on the Saw Mill Parkway for MVAs/ car fires.

[JohnnyOV 2]

These are the automatic mutual aid/dual responses that I'm familiar with:

Yorktown/Bedford Hills

This should be Yorktown/MA FASTeam (Bedford Hills, Croton, Peekskill, Mount Kisco, Ossining, Mohegan) on the intial report of a structure fire.

[NoWestFF 21]

Golden's Bridge has several locations which get an automatic response from Croton Falls depending on the nature of the call. For example, based on the life hazard the elementary school in Golden's Bridge gets a full response from both departments if there's a report of a fire or smoke in the building. Several commercial establishments also have a dual response for reports of a fire or smoke in the building (e.g., North County Shopping Center, Estate Motors, King Lumber). A fire or report of smoke in the building at the firehouse also triggers an automatic response in case the bad scenario of a fire in the firehouse is realized and apparatus or equipment can not be used for suppression. These arrangements were entered into 60 Control's CAD system several years ago with the agreement of the chiefs of the two departments.

When Somers' Ladder 48 was put in service at the Somers firehouse it was added to the response for certain types of calls in Croton Falls and Golden's Bridge.

A few calls over the past few years, and within the past few weeks, have triggered the above responses.

[Spartan052 43]

These are the automatic mutual aid/dual responses that I'm familiar with:

Pelham/Pelham Manor/Mount Vernon, Mamaroneck Town/Mamaroneck Village, Mamaroneck Town/Larchmont, Purchase/West Harrison, Croton Falls/Somers, Yorktown/Bedford Hills, Ossining/Millwood, Tarrytown/Sleepy Hollow/Irvington, Valhalla/Hawthorne, Purchase/Armonk/Port Chester, Pocantico Hills/Archville and Briarcliff/Millwood

Verplanck/Montrose/Buchanan run automatic standby mutual aid

with the trivillage (Buchanan/Montrose/Verplanck)if one has even a chimney fire trivillage is activated but FAST for buchanan or verplanck is usually peekskill (R134) and for montrose Fast is croton (E119) but buchanan does do alot of mutal aide calls with its cascade (U12)

[SageVigiles 1,194]

In West Haven EVERY reported smoke/fire incident has automatic aid from one or more of the other districts. How much aid goes is dependent upon the district and occupancy, but its built into our CAD run cards.

Interestingly, we do have a few parts of town that get "dual response" in the more classic sense. On one street, one side of the road is Allingtown Fire District in West Haven and the other side is in Orange. We actually had a fire on that street a few years back, since 911 calls came in from both sides of the street to both PSAPs, both departments sent a full first alarm assignment. Needless to say manpower was no issue there, but parking space was.

[FF398 45]

with the trivillage (Buchanan/Montrose/Verplanck)if one has even a chimney fire trivillage is activated but FAST for buchanan or verplanck is usually peekskill (R134) and for montrose Fast is croton (E119) but buchanan does do alot of mutal aide calls with its cascade (U12)

Depending on the location of the fire in Montrose's district, determines which FAST team is called on a 10-75 assignment. Usually, anything in the north end of the district is Peekskill, to the south Croton, and anything in the east side is Mohegan.

In regards to Buchanan and Verplanck, I know Verplanck has Peekskill as a FAST but Buchanan 1st alarm assignment had Croton's FAST and Montrose VAFD RIT team respond. That alarm assignment could've changed by now, I'm not 100% sure.

Edited February 17, 2012 by FF398

[IFCO3080 26]

Mount Kisco sends TL-14 to the fox lane campus for everything with Bedford. I also believe that all any report of fire in a commercial building in Bedford our Tower Ladder gets sent as well.

[16fire5 693]

As much as there were many auto aid agreements mentioned it is much more prevalent in the rest of the country and has been for quite some time. Obviously it is commendable when leaders take steps to assure an adequete response. Unfortunatly we still see plenty of situations where egos still prevent common sense agreements to benifit citizens and firefighters alike. While agree with those who advocate consolidation I understand that can not happen overnight. In many cases auto aid agreements can and many times these cooperative agreements can lead to further cooperation down the road.

[Dinosaur 844]

As much as there were many auto aid agreements mentioned it is much more prevalent in the rest of the country and has been for quite some time. Obviously it is commendable when leaders take steps to assure an adequete response. Unfortunatly we still see plenty of situations where egos still prevent common sense agreements to benifit citizens and firefighters alike. While agree with those who advocate consolidation I understand that can not happen overnight. In many cases auto aid agreements can and many times these cooperative agreements can lead to further cooperation down the road.

Egos are the single biggest obstruction to evolution in the fire service today.

[Spartan052 43]

if im correct sommers and yorktown for the boces campus

[drgripsthrowawaytowel 72]

if im correct sommers and yorktown for the boces campus

incorrect. The Boces campus is split with 1 or 2 buildings falling in the Yorktown District, the rest falling into Somers' district.

[Spartan052 43]

incorrect. The Boces campus is split with 1 or 2 buildings falling in the Yorktown District, the rest falling into Somers' district.

thank you for the correction

[Spartan052 43]

In addition, Montrose and Montrose VAFD run dual response to the NYS Veterans Home.

with the VAFD buchanan usually sends a rig to their quartes for standby if needed

[MoFire390 118]

These are the automatic mutual aid/dual responses that I'm familiar with:

Pelham/Pelham Manor/Mount Vernon, Mamaroneck Town/Mamaroneck Village, Mamaroneck Town/Larchmont, Purchase/West Harrison, Croton Falls/Somers, Yorktown/Bedford Hills, Ossining/Millwood, Tarrytown/Sleepy Hollow/Irvington, Valhalla/Hawthorne, Purchase/Armonk/Port Chester, Pocantico Hills/Archville and Briarcliff/Millwood

Verplanck/Montrose/Buchanan run automatic standby mutual aid

Montrose and Montrose VA run together to 2090 Albany Post Rd (NYS Vets Home)

[firedude 985]

Montrose and Montrose VA run together to 2090 Albany Post Rd (NYS Vets Home)

On all calls or just structure?