European Firefighting

[Guest ggg]

Are there volunteer fire departments in Europe?

[abaduck 123]

I'll bite, and tell you about the UK.

The UK doesn't have fire departments; they have fire brigades, and a brigade doesn't cover an area smaller than a county. Some have amalgamated and cover more than one county. So, no local fire departments in the American sense. This has been the case for a very long time - certainly from the second world war, when all existing firefighting resources were, in effect, nationalized, and there was a single National Fire Service for the duration of the war. This big difference, that during the war the North American continent never came under direct attack, whilst the UK was bombed heavily, is mostly responsible for the organizational differences.

Are there volunteers? Yes, there are a very few areas - mostly very remote rural areas with exceedingly low call volumes - in the brigades where 'first aid' fire cover is provided by pure volunteers. Usually they don't have apparatus or SCBA, perhaps just a trailer with basic equipment, maybe some buckets, a portable pump & hose etc.

For the vast, vast majority of the country, the firefighters are not volunteers; they are 'wholetime' or 'retained'.

'Wholetime' means what we would call 'career' - exactly the same as here.

'Retained' firefighters operate a bit like our volunteers - they have day jobs and carry pagers. When the tones drop, they respond to the fire station and get the apparatus out. But they're paid. They're paid an annual bounty or 'retainer' - hence 'retained' - and they're paid at union hourly rates for time spent training and responding to calls. And they have specific duty hours when they're contractually obliged to respond to all calls; they 'clock in' and 'clock out' of their duty hours by cellphone or computer.

They're more like part-time career firefighters, and they can and do join the union. Training is similar for both. So it's more than just 'paid per call'.

Obviously big cities are staffed entirely by 'wholetime' firefighters, and 'retained' firefighters are in smaller towns and rural areas. As far as I know, there are no mixed crews of retained & wholetime firefighters on the same apparatus - so no combo departments as we would think of them. What you do sometimes get is a fire station with a wholetime dayshift and a retained nightshift, for instance.

Oh, and UK firefighters do not do EMS; the ambulance/paramedic service is entirely separate, run by the NHS.

Hope that helps.

Mike

[Bnechis 3,961]

Oh, and UK firefighters do not do EMS; the ambulance/paramedic service is entirely separate, run by the NHS.

While they do not generally respond to EMS calls the wholetimers are trained to the EMT level. While they are not called EMT's they use the BRADY Basic EMT textbook in the fire acadamy. I watched a training scenario at the Morton-in-Marsh Fire College where a pump crew (engine company) responded to an MVA and they extricated the patient including placing the patient in a KED and onto a long board. They performed this well enough that all members would have easily passed that station in a NYS EMT class.

[FFPCogs 863]

While not an expert on the subject by any means I do know that many European countries rely on volunteer fire services especially in smaller communities and rural areas. Germany, Austria, France. Italy, Poland, Czech Republic, Slovakia, Finland, Russia, Ukraine, Hungary, Romania and I think Sweden all have active volunteer fire services that operate in much the same way as it is here. And if I'm not mistaken there are some combimation systems as well in these countries. The UK is another matter entirely and their retained system is unique. That system grew out of the needs imposed by WW2 and the Blitz, and while it has been modifed and problems have arisen over the years, it has and continues to serve the UK well.

Cogs

Edited May 12, 2011 by FFPCogs

[cas2383 22]

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[JFLYNN 681]

I'll bite, and tell you about the UK.

The UK doesn't have fire departments; they have fire brigades, and a brigade doesn't cover an area smaller than a county. Some have amalgamated and cover more than one county. So, no local fire departments in the American sense. This has been the case for a very long time - certainly from the second world war, when all existing firefighting resources were, in effect, nationalized, and there was a single National Fire Service for the duration of the war. This big difference, that during the war the North American continent never came under direct attack, whilst the UK was bombed heavily, is mostly responsible for the organizational differences.

Are there volunteers? Yes, there are a very few areas - mostly very remote rural areas with exceedingly low call volumes - in the brigades where 'first aid' fire cover is provided by pure volunteers. Usually they don't have apparatus or SCBA, perhaps just a trailer with basic equipment, maybe some buckets, a portable pump & hose etc.

For the vast, vast majority of the country, the firefighters are not volunteers; they are 'wholetime' or 'retained'.

'Wholetime' means what we would call 'career' - exactly the same as here.

'Retained' firefighters operate a bit like our volunteers - they have day jobs and carry pagers. When the tones drop, they respond to the fire station and get the apparatus out. But they're paid. They're paid an annual bounty or 'retainer' - hence 'retained' - and they're paid at union hourly rates for time spent training and responding to calls. And they have specific duty hours when they're contractually obliged to respond to all calls; they 'clock in' and 'clock out' of their duty hours by cellphone or computer.

They're more like part-time career firefighters, and they can and do join the union. Training is similar for both. So it's more than just 'paid per call'.

Obviously big cities are staffed entirely by 'wholetime' firefighters, and 'retained' firefighters are in smaller towns and rural areas. As far as I know, there are no mixed crews of retained & wholetime firefighters on the same apparatus - so no combo departments as we would think of them. What you do sometimes get is a fire station with a wholetime dayshift and a retained nightshift, for instance.

Oh, and UK firefighters do not do EMS; the ambulance/paramedic service is entirely separate, run by the NHS.

Hope that helps.

Mike

Yes, I've heard about this before. Sounds like a great system. Too bad for many of the younger members of the volunteer fire service here in the U.S. that their seniors will never fight for such a system here...imagine if we took all the money spent (wasted) in the volunteer fire service on mega-over duplication of apparatus, fire stations, and equipment, LOSAP, tax breaks, education and recruitment incentives, workers comp and liability insurance, lavish social events, etc.. We could have a truly professional and accountable fire service throughout NYS, and many of the younger members of the volunteer fire service would have a better opportunity to make a few bucks and have access to quality training, someday maybe leading to a fulltime career.

Instead, the myth of how much savings to the taxpayers is provided by volunteer firefighters will continue to be perpetuated by their leaders. Wake up young guys and shake things up a bit!

[sueg 77]

Interesting question, and very informative answers. Our brothers in other countries have had to develop ways to do their job specific to their governments, topography and other factors, and it is always great to see that, no matter how same or different, the main thing is that we all get the job done and are dedicated to that fact. Thanks again for sharing your knowledge.

[FFPCogs 863]

Yes, I've heard about this before. Sounds like a great system. Too bad for many of the younger members of the volunteer fire service here in the U.S. that their seniors will never fight for such a system here...imagine if we took all the money spent (wasted) in the volunteer fire service on mega-over duplication of apparatus, fire stations, and equipment, LOSAP, tax breaks, education and recruitment incentives, workers comp and liability insurance, lavish social events, etc.. We could have a truly professional and accountable fire service throughout NYS, and many of the younger members of the volunteer fire service would have a better opportunity to make a few bucks and have access to quality training, someday maybe leading to a fulltime career.

Instead, the myth of how much savings to the taxpayers is provided by volunteer firefighters will continue to be perpetuated by their leaders. Wake up young guys and shake things up a bit!

Well again I find myself shaking my head in disbelief. In yet another sign of the impending apocalypse I find myself in almost total agreement with one of my usual nemesis on these boards....

Chief all joking aside and the comment about the myth of volunteers saving money notwithstanding, I too think that a move towards a retained system would be a benefit, not only to the public we serve and the coffers of those communities, but also to the dedicated men and women that engage in firefighting as a second career (and yes for many volunteers that is exactly what their service amounts to). Of course such a move, while looking good on paper, would entail some major changes to the culture to which most of us are accustomed, but in the end I believe the results would be well worth the effort and expense. Who knows maybe others on both sides of the career/volunteer divide will see the wisdom of such an endeavor.

Cogs

[16fire5 693]

They do it with less people too. Many stations in smaller towns will have only a dozzen members. Most if not all turn out for the calls. There is much more accountability due to the command structure and the pay check. This is all based on Ireland but I think there whole system mirrors the UK. Oh Yeah they love the booster line there use it for everything probably until the fire chases them outside.

[abaduck 123]

@ JFLYNN, Cogs, & 16fire5:

I think the big lesson to take from the UK system is that they do 'more with less' on three fronts:

1. Big organisations: nothing smaller than a county, some cover several counties - hell, Strathclyde covers at least ten counties as far as I can remember, including the large city of Glasgow + suburbs. So you get significant economies of scale, and central planning and allocation of resources; I haven't counted number, but I get the strong impression they manage with a lot less apparatus per head of population than we do. That's probably the single biggest factor.

2. Less people: retained or wholetime, UK seems to run light by American standards. And yes there tend to be fewer retained members, as compared with American volunteers, but they do tend to be extremely active.

3. Less water! Yes they do still mount an interior attack with something strongly resembling a booster reel, but building construction plays a large part here; not much wood frame, traditional British houses tend to be what we would call ordinary construction. So a generally lower fire load, both in terms of structure and contents. UK tactics are big on what they call "quick water" - aiming to have water on the fire in well under a minute from arriving at the structure, and gas cooling tactics.

I wouldn't make so much of the difference between retained & volunteer; in my view the huge organisational differences between UK & USA are the most important. If you see merit in the UK system, the first thing to do is consolidate at nothing smaller than the county level - then start thinking about terms of service.

Mike