Thoughts on FAST

[Remember585 815]

It may have been brought up before but I didn't find it. What's everyone's opinion on the following questions.

1. How many members do you respond with as a MINIMUM?

2. Do you require SPECIAL TRAINING to be on a FAST?

3. What type of apparatus do you use?

4. What is some special equipment you bring on FAST calls?

5. How often do you train?

Please feel free to add anything else you want to. I am in a "FAST state of mind" lately with the Charleston incident, Mike Neuner's 10 Year "Anniversary" and reading other forums. I intend for this to be informative so we can all LEARN FROM IT and not criticize each other.

I am hoping to get answers / thoughts from brothers both paid and volunteer and from all over the place - I am curious to see how we all do things and if we are doing much the same.

Thanks!

[firecapt32 282]

Remember 585--add the following:

where do you get your F.S.A.T. from?

How long do they take to get there?

just some additional thoughts

[mfc442 3]

1. How many members do you respond with as a MINIMUM?

min 4 (fully trained) prefer 6 will not leave the house without at least 5 on on board.

2. Do you require SPECIAL TRAINING to be on a FAST?

FF Survival, F.A.S.T., in house dept training

3. What type of apparatus do you use?

Engine with additional equipment

4. What is some special equipment you bring on FAST calls?

Stokes basket, Ropes, Extra air pack, come along, misc hand tools, Demo saw..........

5. How often do you train?

Not as often as I would like

[Guest alsfirefighter]

John,

Another great post. From most of what I've seen either conducting FAST courses, training, partaking in training and looking at other FAST training there are some great teams out there and there are some getting there and then there are some that are trying and then there are some that I just don't think get it.

As far as your questions:

1. Usually not enough. Phoenix FD found that it often takes 12 to rescue 1. 6 is a good start but not enough. 1 out of every 5 RIT/FAST members will need assistance themselves also. Plus if you activate who is covering your a$$?

2. Many teams I've seen or new members I've trained do. I've also run into a couple that are only requiring FF 1. FF 1? Some members don't even have that...they have the equivalents and I'm all for continued training in house, but why would you not required a credentialed class given by a credentialed instructor certified to teach to a set standard?

3. No comment on this one. As long as it has what you need, that is a department decision. Only additional comment I can pass along is that you should not sacrifice your own services you provide (and I mean ALL SERVICES including EMS) to M/A FAST if you cannot. There are plenty of other teams out there to do the same. I would have more respect if you notify me that you cannot fulfill the request and get another team assembling than to half a$$ it.

4. N/A

5. I have to agree. Nowhere near as often as I'd like to and I think every team should say that.

HOWEVER... one thing that I stress to teams when I assist in their training or teach the course....you cannot replace your basic firefighter training/skills training to do FAST because its a bit more involved or "cooler" as I've heard. If anything you need to train just as hard and if not harder on the "basics" we all were taught and use more often. Search is search, if you have trouble searching for a civilian victim searching for a firefighter isn't going to come any more natural. Fire behavior and knowledge of building construction is critical for all and even more for FAST. How often are you traning on that? Ropes and knots...throwing ladders properly and quickly and single person raises...etc.

[Remember585 815]

I like your thoughts Walt & Tommy!

I guess I should of made this a subject about "what's the coolest tool your FAST has." Maybe then people would actually contribute to the subject.

Or I should of posted a video to watch - seems like that's the way to go to spark peoples' interest...

I didn't expect much out of this - like the Training section which is static most of the time.

Edited June 27, 2007 by Remember585

[mstrang1 213]

I like your thoughts Walt & Tommy!

I guess I should of made this a subject about "what's the coolest tool your FAST has."  Maybe then people would actually contribute to the subject.

Or I should of posted a video to watch - seems like that's the way to go to spark peoples' interest...

I didn't expect much out of this - like the Training section which is static most of the time.

←

Do I sense some hostility here 585? I agree with it...

Stamford Fire Rescue uses 3 firefighters and 1 fire officer as a FAST. This is 1 Engine Company. In addition, the Rescue Company is on hand for, well, rescue. Larger incidents may use 2 FAST, but rarely is this employed, unfortunately.

All SFRD members get annual FAST training. It is not enough, in my opinion.

SFRD, according to the SOG, uses 1 Engine or 1 Ladder Company, but is pretty much always an Engine, for the simple reason of 7 Engines, only 3 Trucks.

All SFRD apparatus have a RIT(as SFRD actually calls it) bag. The Engine companies carry RIT arm bands, a silver tarp for tools, spare SCOTT face pieces and regulators. The silver tarp has a list of all equipment to be gathered. It includes lights, irons, saw, radios, and some other stuff I can't remember (that is why it is written on the tarp). The truck companies have a bag with a SCOTT Pack with a larger 1 hour bottle. This pack is just the frame assembly, no harness, and is for the downed firefighter. We received only 3 or 4 of these, so that is why they are on the Trucks.

In addition, a ladder is thrown on the A side of the fire building.

As stated before, annual training for each member.

The standard response for a structure fire is 3 engines, 1 truck, 1 rescue, 1 deputy. If a working fire is declared, a fourth Engine is assigned as FAST. I would like to see the day that the third engine on the first alarm is employed as the FAST, being that the first few minutes are probably the most dangerous. Unfortunately, the crews inside are without a FAST on the outside for a good 15 minutes at least, by the time the RIT is dispatched, en route to the scene, mostly way across town, and assembled on scene. This is unacceptable to me personally. How many times do things go bad in this time frame? I do not know numbers, but off the top of my head, seems like a lot. Just some food for thought.

[firecapt32 282]

I am finding that F.D.'s around the county are useing other department for their FAST how long is the response time? finding that FAST is needed in the first 10-15 min of a incident. ALS is right the ratio is close to 12-1 look at the Pheniox time study on FAST you wil find it isnt so fast!!

also noticing younger members on the FAST I am not sure this is a good idea-- just because you have the training--dosent mean your a "good firefighter" nothing is better then experience--training is just the first step.

It is good to see many departments setting standards for their members THAT is a good thing m more shoud be doing it and those that dont--well chiefs it might be time to take a stand and remove them from mutual aid. I am sure as incident commanders you do not want or need untrained firefighters running all over your incident. after all if you invite them to your incident YOU and your municipiality are responsible fro them. just my word od caution to you incident commanders.

[hudson144 150]

capt-some depts have 2 members stand IFO the structure as fast team members with no training,tools etc. in other words a smoke screen just to cover their butt! smoke screen will disapate when someone gets hurt or killed. b safe!

[robert benz 344]

how about making sure a TIC is on scene and that the members know how to use it. now that the live fire pod is up and running at the fire academy, what better place to learn how to use it. Batt 14 just ran a drill on that last week

[Remember585 815]

Amazing, seems like everyone is afraid to touch on this subject. Sad, VERY SAD. What are you afraid of? We can all learn from each other here, PITCH IN!!!

1. How many members do you respond with as a MINIMUM?

Minimum is Four Qualified Members, Large-Scale Incidents is Six.

2. Do you require SPECIAL TRAINING to be on a FAST?

Basic FF Training (Essentials/IFA or BFF & IFF or FF I), Survival, FAST, CPR, NIMS, Skills in ropes and rigging, ladders, extrication / airbag equipment and building construction.

3. What type of apparatus do you use?

Primary is an Engine (119), secondary is Engine (118) or Rescue (18).

4. What is some special equipment you bring on FAST calls?

E119 has a stokes, RIT KIT, TIC, Multi-gas meter, K12 Wood Blade, Stihl Cutoff w/ Metal (or concrete) blade, Quik-Vent chain saw, cordless and corded saws-all, Holmatro manual extrication tool, irons, hooks, sledge, bolt cutters, rabbit tool, ropes for rescue and search, ladders (35', 14' roof, 10' attic, Little Giant)

5. How often do you train?

At minimum once a month, every month we try and do something different. July is "Rescuing Our Own From An Aerial." Other drills this year included large-area search, hot bottle changes, hauling systems, firefighter removals and next month we're cross-training with some other teams.

6. Who do you use as your FAST?

Primary is Ossining, backups are Peekskill, Yorktown, Mohegan, Millwood

7. How long does it take to get your FAST?

Usually on road within 5-7 minutes.

Edited July 1, 2007 by Remember585

[Littlemurph1263 0]

. How many members do you respond with as a MINIMUM?

4-6 fully train in FAST

2. Do you require SPECIAL TRAINING to be on a FAST?

FF Surival, NYS FAST Training, and in house training

3. What type of apparatus do you use?

Rescue Truck

4. What is some special equipment you bring on FAST calls?

Strokes Basket, Rope, Hands Tools K 12 Saw, and the hurst tool

5. How often do you train?

Once a month

[firecapt32 282]

585 you are right there should be more responses from departments lets here it from incident commanders how is your FAST working?? tell us whats going on with it!!! what needs improving

[Guest nfdcanman122]

great subject, something that needs to def be a priority in all departments on all calls where a members can become trapped or lost. As we all should know the 3 fireground priorities are 1. Life safety (our brothers and sisters first) then the public 2. Incident stabilization and 3. property conservation. As stated above FAST or RIT or whatever you call it seems like it should be # 1. I took a 2 day class a few years ago on RIT and it was great, I wish to never use it but I know someday it will hapen. My dept is aggresive as heck as most of your own depts are. So as we continue to but brothers and sisters in enviroments where its dangerous things will happen outside our control. I dont mean to sound pesimistic, but its the truth, so we should be ready. I know the old risk alot to save alot and risk alittle to save a little but if someone is trapped and we make a rescue attempt something could go wrong. It doesnt just happen during rescue as we all know, could vent ops, fire extinguihsment etc etc the list could go on forever. We also need to be ready to save our own during technical rescue and Hazmat. Enough of my rambling - hope we all can learn alot from this post and help each other. As always if you have anything to say postive or neg let me know - be Safe out there!

1. How many members do you respond with as a MINIMUM?

We respond w/ 3. Our Engine 3 is designated the fast compay. I know Andy Frredericks wrote a great article about engine acting as fast company's (god rest his soul) I dont remember which month and eyar of FE it was.

2. Do you require SPECIAL TRAINING to be on a FAST?

Negative no special training. If you are on 3's that day and the bell goes off you are it. I would like to see dept wide training on this

3. What type of apparatus do you use?

Answered this one already, sorry about that - 95 E-one pumper Engine 3

4. What is some special equipment you bring on FAST calls?

We respond with a TIC, Various Handtools (Irons, Sledge, Hooks (not steel though, we are working on it, pop it tool, K tool) , We have 3 extra 30 min bottles for our pack which have the buddy breathing system, we are talking of going to 60 min's for RIT, a RIT bottle for the down FF. It is a 45 Min with a mask and regulator. So there are many options, change the regulator, entire face piece. As of right now that bottle does not hook up to air cart, classis huh and I am not sure if it connect's to any in the area (something that needs to be looked at) We also dont have a stokes basket to carry everything so it can get a little cubersome, we could use a roof ladder if we had too, also we carry a circular saw K12, and a reciprocating saw, flashlights, search rope and any things else members have equiped themselves with. (webbing, tools etc)

5. How often do you train?

we have no formal RIT training, but when we do training for fireground tasks we practice for RIT by being able to use them in a RIT situation. As always thinking outside the box is a proper tool to bring.

Now I have yet to read the Phoenix report as they did as a result of one of their members losing their life in a supernmarket fire. I will try to read it tonight as now I am reminded about. I do know from hearing from some people who have read it, they make some great points. My dept runs a 12 person shift 3 on everything and soon a BC in a car. Our fast team is made up of 4 people, well trained but only 4. I think we need to look at perhaps brining in more resources right off the bat, people will always come and will turn around if you dont need them. Id rather have them on the way or there and need them then then need them and be 10-20-30 or more minutes behind the 8 ball. I know this is tough for smaller depts or rural dept with daytime responce a problem. Ok sorry again about the ramble - be safe out there

[Guest nfdcanman122]

sorry but I forgot to add that the RIT company FASt compay with enough members, leaving 1 w/ the IC can be proactive. Throw some ladders, force some doors, anything to make their job easier if called upon. Now I know some might disagree, that they would want there RIT/FAST rested and ready to go. I can see both sides- be safe out there

[Guest moose__72]

Canman122, was that Andy Fredricks article about the "Safety Engine Concept" or something like that? If it is I agree, good article. I think I might have it, I'll look.

[OLDGUY19 6]

Most I/C's must remember that RIT/FAST teams are to be used for that function only. RIT/FAST teams have their own size up/ reconning and set up to do. They are there to rescue the down firefighter not to be used for attack or vent teams they are not extra. Calling in M/A Companys to do RIT/FAST is better than none at all.It is difficult at best when you run short of manpower for the I/C to try not to use these teams.Training for this should be done as much as possible as with all aspects of our job even if it is just going over the equipment.

[Guest moose__72]

It's good to see a lot of participation on a topic as important as rapid intervention. I myself am a firm believer that a RIT should be on stand by for any incident that requires entry to a restricted or compromised atmosphere. But with staffing the way it is, both career and volunteer, it's always a sore subject because mutual aid is usually a must. But in this day and age where there are so many hazards hidden in the most simple of calls, it should never be a question of holding companies back. Let's get them on the road and we can always turn them back.

The rapid intervention team and command needs to be ever evolving and changing to meet the needs of the specific incident. Is there enough members of the RIT, should a second RIT be staging, what tools would be needed for the specific occupancy, entry and exits, and crews already in operation are just a few of the hundreds of things what should be rattling around in the RIT Officers head. As previously mentioned, when a RIT is on scene, RIT is their only duty. That can include recon for the scene IC as well as formulating a action plan, laddering the building in addition to what is in place, and forcing more entry points which also created more exits. When ever a ladder is placed or a door forced, the IC should be notified to allow him to pass on the info to the teams. And the RIT should always be together. Whether is doing a lap around the structure or staging near the IC.

Tools. There can never be to little, and it always seems that more are needed. But you want to select tools that will make an impact on the rescue but not slow you down or create more of a hazard by trying to lug them around. Look at the specific incident and the surroundings. Masonry construction may require bigger breaching tools. Wide areas may require even more ropes. Discuss this during the walk around and combine all the ideas.

And as for training, there can never be enough. One thing I like to do is train with other companies or individuals that you may end up working with at a scene. This can be difficult with large departments or wide response areas, but if possible look into 'mutual aid drills' or standardized training courses. In out area out local fire school was designated the training official of RIT. This helps with uniform SOP's and works to get everyone on the same page.

I've attached a form I made a few years back. If anything it's a good reminder to get the mind going when planning a RIT operation. Keep up the good work and keep the discussion running. Thanks.

Hotchkiss_Hose_RIT_Worksheet.pdf

[firecapt32 282]

good form moose lets hope some incident commanders copy it and use it